Speaker Suggestions for New Home Theater Setup [Picture Included]

zipzap62

zipzap62

Audiophyte
Hi, my family and I just moved into a new home and we setup a massive 180" projection screen setup in the living room (approximately 24x25). It looks fantastic, but I am totally lost on what to get for speakers.

I've asked a few friends, some say to just forget surround sound and go with two loudspeakers with a sub. While others say to go with a full surround sound setup. I'm really open to all ideas.

If it helps any, I do have a decent receiver I bought a few years back. It's the Denon AVR-1908. I thought the picture would help give a better perspective on what I'm working with. I'll answer any questions you may have about the room or about anything else.

Uses will be mainly for watching HDTV, Movies, and a little gaming.

PS: Our budget as of now is about $2,000. I appreciate the help in advance!

imgur.com/HlAaF.jpg (Sorry, can't link yet)
The picture is a panorama, so it may appear a bit warped.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there! Welcome to the forum :)

I have several thoughts and recommendations to offer you about your speaker system.

First up, thank you for providing that picture and some info about what you already have and what you're looking to spend! It's a very big help to know what we're dealing with.

So, you've got quite a large room there. And many seats in a wide and deep seating area. Those factors, combined with some of the limitations of your Denon 1908 AV Receiver, are going to present several challenges. But I will do my best to explain, and I'll try to recommend products that will work well with your situation.

With a large room, and your primary listening being movies, TV and games, you're going to want speakers with high output (loud) capabilities. To further complicate matters, your 1908 Receiver does not have pre-outs for the speakers. That means you will be forced to power your speakers with the amps that are built into the 1908. You do not have the option to use a more powerful, external amplifier. Thankfully, the 1908 has pretty decent amps, but they are not hugely powerful. They are not meant for 4 ohm or lower impedance speakers.

So all of that is going to mean that you will want to purchase very efficient, easy to drive speakers that are capable of playing loud without distortion. And that's perfectly fine! We simply need to be aware of your requirements so that we can keep them in mind when selecting speakers :)

Next, with such a wide seating area, I would highly recommend that you include a dedicated Center speaker in your setup. A good pair of Front Left & Right speakers can create a very convincing "phantom" Center on their own. But even with very good Front L/R speakers, that illusion of a Center image really only works when you are seated in between the two Front L/R speakers. When you have a very wide seating area like yours, the seats on the outside edges will not get a very convincing Center image. Having a dedicated Center speaker will solve that problem, and anchor dialogue to the screen, where it is supposed to be.

In regards to surround speakers: they are not entirely necessary. And having such a large area of seats will also make it more of a challenge to get a good surround effect, especially for the seats that are farthest back. You also have quite an open floor plan with openings everywhere. That said, a good pair of diffuse surround speakers mounted up high on the side walls will do quite well for enveloping the entire seating area and "blanketing" the audience with surround effects, just like in a full sized movie theater. Given your budget, it might be best to forego surround speakers for the moment. But if you ever want to add some surround speakers, that is what I would recommend. Check out the THX Guidelines for Speaker Placement . You can see that a 5.1 speaker setup calls for diffuse surround speakers mounted up high and to the sides of the seats. So that's exactly what I would recommend.

Finally, with such a large room and seating area, you are going to want very capable subwoofers. And more than one subwoofer would be preferable. Although your budget might make that difficult. Having more than one subwoofer isn't so much about being able to play louder, it's more about each seat having smoother and more even bass. In any room, bass frequencies will bounce around - especially off of hard, flat surfaces like your walls, floor and ceiling. So you've got these sound waves bouncing all around your room, and bass waves, being very long and powerful, will produce standing waves. If you picture a wave with its smooth up and down, crest and trough shape, you can imagine how some seats will wind up being right where there's a crest, and other seats will wind up being right where there's a trough. The people seated in the crests will hear bass that is way too loud, while the people seated in the troughs will hear almost no bass at all! And with standing waves, those peak and trough positions never change, so you're stuck with way too loud bass for some seats, almost no bass at all for other seats, and only a few lucky seats that are not in a peak or a trough get the bass the way it is supposed to sound.

Having more than one subwoofer allows you to break up these standing waves using interference. With the same bass coming from two or more different spots in your room, it's simply less likely that anyone will be sitting in a trough or a crest. The sound waves from one subwoofer might create a trough or a crest at a given seat, but the sound waves from the other subwoofer(s) will be a little bit different, so you get this sort of averaging out of the sound waves throughout the room, and almost everyone gets to enjoy the bass the way it is supposed to be - not too loud, and not too quiet :)

So with that understanding, let's look at some options. I'll start with the subwoofers:

Normally, in a room that size, I'd recommend a pair of very high output subwoofers. But those can be expensive!

The HSU VTF-15H Dual Drive would be an excellent choice. But once you include shipping, these would take up your entire $2000 budget all on their own!

A rather new company - started by the same guys who started SVS back in the day - Power Sound Audio offers the XV15 , which looks to be a tremendous deal for a very high output, very linear 15" subwoofer. They include shipping in their price. But again, a pair will set you back $1600, which leaves too little in the budget for speakers.

So if the budget cannot be increased, we'll need to look at some lower cost options.

The Outlaw LFM-1 EX is essentially a clone of the older HSU VTF-3 MK3. With shipping, a pair comes to about $1475. This is about as good as it gets in terms of "bang for your buck". I personally wouldn't want to go less than this option in terms of price and output capabilities in the room that you showed. But with nearly $1500 spent after including the shipping cost, it once again leaves rather little in the budget for speakers. That said, if there's any way to stretch that $2000 budget to a larger amount, this is as low as I would go. And I really would want a pair of subwoofer in that room with that seating area. A single subwoofer will definitely be problematic at several of those seating positions.

If there's just no budging on the price, we start to get into subs that might struggle to cope with your room size.

The HSU VTF-2 MK4 is a very good subwoofer, and the least expensive subwoofer I consider capable of "doing it all", by which I mean genuine extension down to 20Hz while retaining high accuracy and low distortion. A pair will be $1225 after shipping. Much more reasonable for the budget, but I worry a little bit about sheer output. They should be o...k... But you might be hitting their maximum output levels in that large, open room of yours.

So a final option would be the Klipsch Reference RW-12D . The $500 price at Newegg is a lot higher now. It used to be on sale for $350, which made it a great deal when it was that cheap. At the moment I'm writing this, I'm not seeing it for less than $500 at any authorized sellers though. This Klipsch sub is not at the same quality level as any of the subs I've mentioned so far. But it can at least play quite loud, and will do an ok job of handling your room size. If you search around, you might be able to find this sub for a good sale price, which would make it a better value, and give you more room in the budget for speakers.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
So let's talk about speakers, now that I've brought them up!

Some of my favorite high output speaker options would be the

EMP Tek E55Ti towers with E56Ci Center . These are gorgeous to look at. They have very clear and neutral mid-range, but quite a rolled off top end. That makes them very non-fatiguing, and in a room with no room treatments, they might suit your ears if you do not like any harsh treble. But they don't exactly have that "crisp" and highly detailed sound that a lot of people are drawn to. It's a matter of taste.

The bigger downside though is that the way these speakers play loud is by being able to suck down A LOT of power. They aren't the most efficient, and they aren't the easiest load, so they're not really a good match for your 1908 receiver. They'd do really well in your room with an external amp, but using your 1908, they're probably not the best choice here.

A similar thing is true of the inexpensive Inifinity Primus P363 towers and PC351 Center. While their low price and ability to play very loud without distortion are nice, these are rather hard to drive speakers, being essentially a 4 ohm load and requiring lots of juice that your 1908 can't really muster.

So it's time to look at some alternatives.

To be honest, my personal pick would probably be the Paradigm Monitor Series 7 speakers, with the Monitor 9 tower and Center 3 models being the ones I'd pick. The good thing about Paradigm is that they are widely available all across North America in many retail shops. So you should be able to find a store near you where you can go and listen to them in person. The price on these is higher though. The Monitor 9 and Center 3 all retail for $600 EACH. So at full MSRP, the front three would be $1800. Most Paradigm dealers sell for less. But if you go with these and a pair of subs, you'll need to stretch the budget.

I've been very impressed with the Monitor Series 7 speakers though. They have a nicely neutral and accurate sound. They can play very loud. And they're very easy to drive. So they make a good match for your situation, IMO. The only sticking point is going to be the price, since I feel so strongly that you should go with dual subwoofers.

So another option will be the Klipsch Reference Series. I wouldn't want to go below the Reference Series in Klipsch's lineup. And truth be told, I personally not the biggest fan of the Klipsch horn-loaded tweeter sound. But there are A LOT of Klipsch fans out there. And the good news is, like Paradigm, there are lots of local dealers that carry Klipsch, so you should be able to hear them in person before you make a decision.

The Klipsch speakers are, by quite a margin, the most efficient and easiest to drive speakers that I've mentioned so far. They can get crazy loud with very little power, so they might turn out to be your best choice. Definitely speakers worth considering, in any case.

Finally, if it's all about hitting that budget, you can consider the BIC Acoustech PL Series speakers. These are available and Amazon and parts-express. And like the Klipsch speakers, they are horn-loaded and extremely efficient and easy to drive. You can easily stay within your budget with these BIC speakers. And while they're not the most neutral or accurate, they do come across as very clear, and many people love them for that. Since music isn't a high priority in your system, these might do very, very well for you. Worthy of consideration. But hearing them in person might require purchasing them and then sending them back if you don't like them. If you hear the Klipsch and hate the horn-loaded tweeter sound, then these won't be for you either, so that's one way to at least cut down on the chance of trying out the BIC speakers.

Hope that helps!
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Welcome, and here is your picture, GREAT ROOM!!!

I'm sure FR covered it all as usual, I sadly didn't read his entire post though, cause I'm lazy :eek:

That is a real nice room for a theater and $2000 is going to go fast, honestly I think you should be spending $5K minimum...

Your biggest problem is going to be SUBS... You could spend your budget and still be lacking :(

But that doesn't mean much.. You can still get it done...

Already having an AVR is a plus, so your $2000 goes to speakers and subs alone...

For subs I would go with a pair {at least} and in your budget a pair of vtf 2's can be had for around $1200 shipped {call them you may get a break buying 2, I bought a pair of stf2's and they knocked a few bucks off}...

Now that only leaves you with $800 for you 5 speakers.... Not impossible..
Lets start with the surrounds... these dont do much, they are just effect speakers, and in my system I only notice them with stuff like foot steps in the distance, car doors closing in the back ground, ect... I wouldnt go with a regualar bookshelf for yours because of the room size and seating...

Anyway- $125 a pair Amazon.com: Fluance AVBP2 Bipolar Surround Sound Satellite Speakers: Electronics

Leaving $675 for your front 3- These are important, they have to match and should be efficient and neutral since you are going to want some good volume out of them and dont want to drive bright highs into the people seated closer to them... You have a few options on these... Ill give you my choices...

Ascend Acoustics- In your budget you can get a pair of cbm170's and a 340se center {total $676}
But I would see if you could stretch it a little to t3 -340 fronts which would put you at almost $900 but be a lot better... You can save 12% if you call them and get Bstock items... putting the 3-340s almost in budget...
Ascend System Advisor


If you dont mind ebay, these 2 items would be much better than anything else in your budget, the center is marked down open box, and the 10.6 towers are almost half price... If you use buy it now you would be around $850, but the cheapest I could find the towers alone is $999.99!!! I have heard them they sound great...
Wharfedale Diamond 10 CS Rosewood ea Open Box Center Channel Speaker 703340287925 | eBay
Wharfedale Diamond 10 6 Speaker Brand New 5025941098843 | eBay

If you have to stay with budget I say 170 340 combo, if you can stretch it, the wharfedale diamond 10.6 and center in rosewood are a heck of a deal...

Just in case you do change your mind about budget...

An HSU 15" dual drive $2000, a pair of KEF 800ds surrounds $550, focal cc814v $350, Focal 716v towers $800, and an XPA3 amplifier for your front 3 $700, that would be around $4500... If I remember correctly you 1908 will have preouts? And it will sound good for your money, but thinking about it Im not sure if it will be more than twice as good, since you can get the wharfedales and dual vtf2's for $2200 or so....

decisions decisions..... good luck bud, I would love to see how it turns out, so keep us informed after the purchases...
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
At some point, if budget allows, you may want to swap that screen out with a tab-tensioned model. I can see the waves in the fabric already. Lots of room in there though... A lot of growth that can happen.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
At some point, if budget allows, you may want to swap that screen out with a tab-tensioned model. I can see the waves in the fabric already. Lots of room in there though... A lot of growth that can happen.
That wouldnt bother me, My parents have an old screen in their basement, with an old projector, still all works, and the screen has a giant X through it, It actually lines up when they show the X in First Class beginning credits, now that is an effect you cant buy...;)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The Outlaw LFM-1 EX is essentially a clone of the older HSU VTF-3 MK3.
The LFM-1 EX is a clone of the VTF3 mk2, not the mk3. The mk3 is a bit higher performing sub.

A similar thing is true of the inexpensive Inifinity Primus P363 towers and PC351 Center. While their low price and ability to play very loud without distortion are nice, these are rather hard to drive speakers, being essentially a 4 ohm load and requiring lots of juice that your 1908 can't really muster.
I have looked, and I have never heard of any receiver having trouble driving the Primus speakers. Yeah, they have some impedance dips, but I think any receiver could drive them just fine. Ideally you would want a receiver rated for that load, but I don't believe it's necessary at all. I have driven my own Primus speakers with a few different receivers, some of which don't recommend 4 ohm loads, and none had any problems.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
$2000 and huge dedicated room ...
This is not much as others said. One way to do it is to go with DIY speakers
Speaker Design Works
Speaker Projects Gallery,Speaker Design Goals, Project Materials, Enclosure Assembly, Speaker Project Photos and More, Submitted By Parts Express Customers.

These will be good match for your denon, be loud, clear and wont break bank
They can also be built as dedicated center

If you have tools and interest - you could really get excellent results - far exceeding commercial offerings at similar price points.

While you there build a DIY sub or two. Jinuku's dual Infinity design looks very promising and again - very high value
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
$2000 and huge dedicated room ...
This is not much as others said. One way to do it is to go with DIY speakers
Speaker Design Works
Speaker Projects Gallery,Speaker Design Goals, Project Materials, Enclosure Assembly, Speaker Project Photos and More, Submitted By Parts Express Customers.

These will be good match for your denon, be loud, clear and wont break bank
They can also be built as dedicated center

If you have tools and interest - you could really get excellent result and while you there build a DIY sub or two. Jinuku's dual Infinity design looks very promising and again - very high value
I was thinking DIY subs, Pe has a few options that look good bang for buck...
Subwoofer System Kits in the Speaker Components Department at Parts Express | 287
But they arent really cheaper than the vtf2, and that is just unpack and plugin... Although the 1202K always intrested me...

Also is that a fireplace? this makes mounting a center tough, but you can always get a stand and pull it out when you are going to watch a movie..
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
zipzap, as the others said, you will need to shift a significant proportion of your budget for a sub in that room, yet you will still want powerful speakers. I would give Klipsch Reference bookshelf speakers are hard look with that budget in that room. You might look at some Klipsch RB-61s for the front stage, and another for a center if you can find one sold separately. You don't need great speakers for surrounds, so don't spend a lot there, I think these Synergy B-20s would work well there and not cost too much, or these BIC America FH-65B speakers. You should also check out something like this Hsu package, you will want subwoofer on the scale of the Hsu VTF15h, if not even more powerful, or you could get one now and add another later if you felt like you needed more bass. You might also check out these speakers from Chase Home theater, they are extremely efficient and would make for a powerful front stage.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Given the size (large), budget (modest), and purpose (movies): I think high-sensitivity would be a very important consideration.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
zipzap, as the others said, you will need to shift a significant proportion of your budget for a sub in that room, yet you will still want powerful speakers. I would give Klipsch Reference bookshelf speakers are hard look with that budget in that room. You might look at some Klipsch RB-61s for the front stage, and another for a center if you can find one sold separately. You don't need great speakers for surrounds, so don't spend a lot there, I think these Synergy B-20s would work well there and not cost too much, or these BIC America FH-65B speakers. You should also check out something like this Hsu package, you will want subwoofer on the scale of the Hsu VTF15h, if not even more powerful, or you could get one now and add another later if you felt like you needed more bass. You might also check out these speakers from Chase Home theater, they are extremely efficient and would make for a powerful front stage.
HSU Package is great idea. I don't normally recommend these, but having heard them recently at AH GTG - they are not bad at all and VTF-15H is a monster - it's huge both in size and performance.
7.1 HSU package is probably what I'd suggested given your room size.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
All in all bookshelf speakers can work - however you need to factor
in the cost of stands. Also, a stand for the center speaker. I would
look at 3.1 or 5.1 to begin with, if you start with the VTF-15 sub >

I would think about holding off on 7.1 for now, and placement tends
to look challenging at the moment. > Will the sofa by the back stair
rail be used much?

The HSU Hybrid package is a good option to look at.

Just for an option and and they can really get loud, is the HTD Level
Three towers and Level Three center, with the VTF-15 sub to start >
the front stage can give you some big sound.
HTD Level THREE Tower Speakers

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Center-Channel-Speaker

This is the Level Three bookshelves
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Bookshelf-Speakers

No need to spend a lot on surrounds, for 5.1 experience - there are
some options out there for around $100.

If you really want that true hard hitting sound >>> then the Chase
reccomended earlier should be looked at. Post #10
 
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zipzap62

zipzap62

Audiophyte
First let me start off by saying thank you guys so much for the lengthy and super informative posts! So according to everyone, we all agreed that dual subs are a must and a surround setup would be best. We also agreed that my AVR is lower end but is still workable. Which brings me to ask, should I sell my current one off to buy a better one? Everyone seems to be telling me to raise the budget, and I'll probably top off to around $3,000 now if it helps substantially.

A TON of speakers and subs were linked, they all look great and once again I really do appreciate the time you guys have taken to suggest each one. But, doing research on my own brought me to many speakers before. So that's why I want you guys to tell me exactly what to get that fits my budget. I know that sounds crazy but I'll literally purchase whatever you guys link. If we all could come to an agreement on a specific set of speakers, that would be great because I don't want to have to decide one just ONE person's speaker set.

Paradigm speakers were mentioned, and I found an entire home theater set on craigslist (same city as me) for only $2,000. He even includes his 65" projection TV! I just thought I might show it because I think its a great deal. Feel free to tell me its not :)
appleton.craigslist.org/ele/3361382130.html

To answer the question about the back of the room, It is a fireplace behind the screen. Along with sliding glass doors on each side. The screen is electronic and does go up.

People were suggesting stands to place underneath to hold the center speaker, which sounds like a good idea, but what about mounting it on the ceiling above the screen?
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I'll literally purchase whatever you guys link. If we all could come to an agreement on a specific set of speakers, that would be great because I don't want to have to decide one just ONE person's speaker set.

People were suggesting stands to place underneath to hold the center speaker, which sounds like a good idea, but what about mounting it on the ceiling above the screen?
That would be a small miracle, if everyone agreed on the same set.:)

You will not be outside looking up at the clouds >> you want the voices
and sound to come at you, not above you. The sound will be un-balanced
and distracting.

If you are going to spend around $3000 - then set it up right.
 
zipzap62

zipzap62

Audiophyte
That would be a small miracle, if everyone agreed on the same set.:)
Haha yes it would. I meant if just 2-3 people could agree.

You will not be outside looking up at the clouds >> you want the voices
and sound to come at you, not above you. The sound will be un-balanced
and distracting.

If you are going to spend around $3000 - then set it up right.
Alright, that's totally fine, I was just suggesting. If it sounds better near the floor then that's what I'll do.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
$3000 is much better... and easier...

I would definitely go with the ascend 340se fronts with 200se surrounds with a set of stands for the 340's, $1300 the stands are on sale for $40 off, also they will sell you one stand for your center too... they show a picture if it on there home page sideways...
When I bought my system I auditioned and went and listened to so many sets of speakers I started going crazy... The ascends sound much better than anything else in their price range...
CMT-340 SE Mini-Tower Loudspeaker

Then for subs Dual vtf3's VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer
$1600, I believe if you call and order 2 and ask if they will give you a discount for dual purchase they will, I think they knocked $50 off a pair of stf2's for us...

I run the 340 front stage with the 200 surrounds, and they will no doubt bring a smile to your face, you can save a little buying bstock which they sometimes have... they discount 12% for that...

Now that system with them subs will shake that big room for sure...
As far as an AVR, yours will easily drive the 340s...

You could change up the surrounds, since I may lean towards bi/di pole since you may have to mount them beween the seating position, but I dont think its going to make a huge difference.. Wharfedale makes a $300 set of dipoles that are decent..
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Paradigm speakers were mentioned, and I found an entire home theater set on craigslist (same city as me) for only $2,000. He even includes his 65" projection TV! I just thought I might show it because I think its a great deal. Feel free to tell me its not :)
appleton.craigslist.org/ele/3361382130.html
I for one strongly believe that Paradigm makes great speakers, but priced way too much, which makes them below average value, BUT this might be deal of the century and I'd jump on it.

Keep these:
*Niles IPC-10 power management system
*Bell'Oggetti component display tower w/light
*Paradigm Reference Studio Series 100 (front towers with black finish)
*Paradigm Reference Studio/CC OM-530 (Center with black finish)
*Paradigm Reference Studio/ADP w/stands (Rear with black finish)
*Paradigm Reference Servo-Series Servo-15 (Powered subwoofer with black finish)
*Paradigm X-30 Control unit

Disregard these:
*Mitsubishi Medallion HD 1080 Series 65" projection ($200-250, depends on new is the bulb)
*Sony Receiver STR-DA555ES (too old, maybe $100 value here)
*Sony CD/DVD player DVP-S7700 (not much, $25-50?)
*Sony VHS HI-FI SLV-N500 ($0 except museum value)

Use the rest of your 3g budget to get new AVR - something like Denon DENON AVR-3312CI 7.2 Integrated Network A/V Surround Receiver w/AirPlay | Accessories4less


MAKE SURE TO TEST THE SPEAKERS AND SUB BEFORE PURCHASING. NO TEST = DON'T BUY
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I for one strongly believe that Paradigm makes great speakers, but priced way too much, which makes them below average value, BUT this might be deal of the century and I'd jump on it.

MAKE SURE TO TEST THE SPEAKERS AND SUB BEFORE PURCHASING. NO TEST = DON'T BUY
I would really check into that, and you still have $1000 left
from the $3000 budget - to complete your set-up.
 
zipzap62

zipzap62

Audiophyte
I for one strongly believe that Paradigm makes great speakers, but priced way too much, which makes them below average value, BUT this might be deal of the century and I'd jump on it.
Deal of the century you say? I'll message him right now to see if he'll disregard what you said to bring the price down to $1,800. Thanks for taking a look at that.

So with the $1,200 left, I'll get the DENON AVR-3312CI which leaves me with around $630. Do you think buying another Paradigm subwoofer is a good idea? Or should I buy a different brand?

MAKE SURE TO TEST THE SPEAKERS AND SUB BEFORE PURCHASING. NO TEST = DON'T BUY
Yes for sure I will test them.
 
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