Sound Degradation with Whole House Selector Box?

K

konajoe

Audioholic Intern
Hi All!

We're having a house built. We plan to have a whole house sound system with stereo in 3 indoor rooms plus outdoor patio. The music will all be from the same source. Is there any sound degradation in the room selector box or the impedance matching rotary volume dials? If so, how do I minimize or eliminate the degradation? Thanks.
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
It's hard to say without a complete equipment list, wiring used and distances. 4 zones, single source at what levels? All at once?
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I have played with my system and setup a bunch of others. I have heard the difference between spending $10K and 1K on a whole house system and I can tell you first hand its not a huge difference... Buy decent 3 way speakers like yamaha {my favorite for the money}, a decent amp that is good down to 4ohms{I use emo upa200}, a mono price selector box, and jamo volume controls {mono price wire}, and the system will be nice, the speakers are most likely going to be ceiling mounted/down fired, so critical listening isn't going to be a huge part of the experience, and the truth of the matter is that is where you lose sound quality, not in the equipment..
 
K

konajoe

Audioholic Intern
OK. But I'm very curios about the first reply. So all else being equal, a given rotary volume control may or may not degrade sound depending on which AVR is used, or how far the the switch is from the avr?
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
OK. But I'm very curios about the first reply. So all else being equal, a given rotary volume control may or may not degrade sound depending on which AVR is used, or how far the the switch is from the avr?
Without knowledge of your gear your questions are fruitless...
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I have played with my system and setup a bunch of others. I have heard the difference between spending $10K and 1K on a whole house system and I can tell you first hand its not a huge difference... Buy decent 3 way speakers like yamaha {my favorite for the money}, a decent amp that is good down to 4ohms{I use emo upa200}, a mono price selector box, and jamo volume controls {mono price wire}, and the system will be nice, the speakers are most likely going to be ceiling mounted/down fired, so critical listening isn't going to be a huge part of the experience, and the truth of the matter is that is where you lose sound quality, not in the equipment..
While you may find negligible difference in sound there is /will be a night and day difference in control. I also suspect that a 1k and 10k system will sound noticeable.
 
K

konajoe

Audioholic Intern
The system is not designed yet. No equipment has been selected, because I don't understand all of this stuff yet. Makes sense, right? Can you give me an example of a case where there would be degradation of a signal in a rotary volume control with one avr (your choice) yet no degradation with another avr (your choice)?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
OK. But I'm very curios about the first reply. So all else being equal, a given rotary volume control may or may not degrade sound depending on which AVR is used, or how far the the switch is from the avr?
Will this setups in the three rooms be used for critical listening to uncover flaws in the recordings and or components?
If not, I would not worry one bit. Just enjoy the music.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
While you may find negligible difference in sound there is /will be a night and day difference in control. I also suspect that a 1k and 10k system will sound noticeable.

Believe it or not, there is not a noticeable difference in sound, I started off with a very expensive multi channel multi zone amplifier, fancy control system, and some expensive jbl ceiling speakers... Well the amp cooked a few channel blocks a few times, then the last straw was a fried board 3 months out of warranty... I bought another expensive multi channel / zone amp and then my controller started acting up, that was replaced under warranty because Russ sound knew about a problem with the units, the JBL speakers sounded good but didnt play loud and didnt have much low end at all, and one of them failed, it was just a loose crossover section...

At the time we were building a lot of high end houses and my electrician started installing simple house systems with a simple in wall ipod dock, a single amp, and selector box with wall controls for each room... It cost much much much less and sounded just as good, he also started using yamaha speakers, which were a little larger but angled in the enclosure and sounded awesome... He told me that all the issues with the big amps and controllers were costing him tons of money and his supplier said a lot of guys were going this way...

So I pulled my entire system out, made the holes a little larger installed the much cheaper yamaha speakers, Installed a pair of dayton apa150 amplifiers later changed to a pair of emotiva 2 channel amps {looks better in my rack, 1 amp for inside 1 for outside}, and control everything from my 3 zone avr.... With a selector box on each zone, zone one is my home theater with a 5ch amp zone 2 and 3 are both upa200's with mono price selector boxes, wall controls are simple jamo units.. We use it all of the time and never have an issue, the system works flawlessly... Its loud, clean, clear, and requires no work or confusion to run it. I hit zone 3 on on my remote control, the source automatically turns on as well as the amp, then turn the volume control up in that room I want sound, or in all the rooms...

Take my advice, don't spend more than you have to, a thousand dollars will get it done.. My point from my earlier post was, no matter what you do or spend, down fired ceilig speakers arent going to sound "wonderful" and be great for critical listening, so why question what degradation the volume controls and other hardware in the system will create.. I haven't heard a properly working modern preamp or iamp with a volume control that made an audible difference in any system...
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Believe it or not, there is not a noticeable difference in sound, I started off with a very expensive multi channel multi zone amplifier, fancy control system, and some expensive jbl ceiling speakers... Well the amp cooked a few channel blocks a few times, then the last straw was a fried board 3 months out of warranty... I bought another expensive multi channel / zone amp and then my controller started acting up, that was replaced under warranty because Russ sound knew about a problem with the units, the JBL speakers sounded good but didnt play loud and didnt have much low end at all, and one of them failed, it was just a loose crossover section...

At the time we were building a lot of high end houses and my electrician started installing simple house systems with a simple in wall ipod dock, a single amp, and selector box with wall controls for each room... It cost much much much less and sounded just as good, he also started using yamaha speakers, which were a little larger but angled in the enclosure and sounded awesome... He told me that all the issues with the big amps and controllers were costing him tons of money and his supplier said a lot of guys were going this way...

So I pulled my entire system out, made the holes a little larger installed the much cheaper yamaha speakers, Installed a pair of dayton apa150 amplifiers later changed to a pair of emotiva 2 channel amps {looks better in my rack, 1 amp for inside 1 for outside}, and control everything from my 3 zone avr.... With a selector box on each zone, zone one is my home theater with a 5ch amp zone 2 and 3 are both upa200's with mono price selector boxes, wall controls are simple jamo units.. We use it all of the time and never have an issue, the system works flawlessly... Its loud, clean, clear, and requires no work or confusion to run it. I hit zone 3 on on my remote control, the source automatically turns on as well as the amp, then turn the volume control up in that room I want sound, or in all the rooms...

Take my advice, don't spend more than you have to, a thousand dollars will get it done.. My point from my earlier post was, no matter what you do or spend, down fired ceilig speakers arent going to sound "wonderful" and be great for critical listening, so why question what degradation the volume controls and other hardware in the system will create.. I haven't heard a properly working modern preamp or iamp with a volume control that made an audible difference in any system...
maybe if you had someone with experience do the install, you would have thought different. Proper audio distribution can make a difference, if it didnt id be broke. Are there budget options, sure. Most people haven't had the pleasure of a truly integrated system. That level of control with in wall, in ceiling speakers isnt truly appreciated untill you work with it . If your customers went with the bare minimum AC system, they might be satisfied, but are they better off ? Never discount the possibilities..
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
maybe if you had someone with experience do the install, you would have thought different. Proper audio distribution can make a difference, if it didnt id be broke. Are there budget options, sure. Most people haven't had the pleasure of a truly integrated system. That level of control with in wall, in ceiling speakers isnt truly appreciated untill you work with it . If your customers went with the bare minimum AC system, they might be satisfied, but are they better off ? Never discount the possibilities..
Hey you don't have to convince me, I am just stating my opinion. My install was done with someone that has experience, he's a master electrician with tons of control experience {"real" controls not just home automation and security, he wired the TWO- 400amp 3 phase panels at my shop as well as all the invertor gens and pumps on my lots, there are 4 companies in the state capable of doing that work}, when we were building houses he was doing all of our electrical work, he has a showroom and specializes in automation, security, smart homes, ect.... He wired all of my tikki torches {I can turn them on with my iphone}, my pool sprayers, my power blinds, fans, ect that can all be ran from my iphone, it all works great... BUT he says "with whole house audio simple is better", I am just sharing my experience and agree with him, my complicated system was just that, harder to use, more expensive, and prone to failure....

I understand what you are saying with the bare minimum HVAC system, BUT, its true in my field too.. I always explain to my customers, spending more will get your more of everything, more energy savings, more impressive looking system, ect BUT also be prepared for more initial costs, more service headaches, more difficult repairs, more expensive parts, more break downs.. The truth of the matter is a 13 seer std 410a A/C system will cool your house the same as a 21 seer variable speed system but it will cost 4 times as much to install, 5 times as much to repair, and last 1/2 as long... You make the decision for your self..... I still sell a lot of high efficiency systems, people with very large homes, people who dont care about money they just want the best, ect.. But the normal, smart, thrifty, people go with the basic systems, $4K installed vs $14K, the house is still cold in the summer, any tech can fix it, any supply house carries the parts, and it will last a very long time because its just a simple relay, capacitor, scroll compressor, condenser, and coil, no 3 way reversing valves, no triple acting relays, 30 prong circuit boards, exotic refrigerants, oversized compressors, ect, ect, ect, ect...

My point is this, you can buy an amp, selector, speakers, volume controls, and cables for around $800 all said and done, simple to wire, simple to use, simple to diagnose in the case of an issue and it is going to sound as good if not better {speakers being the same of course} than any complicated digitally controlled multi ch/zone amp system costing $5K+..

As far as ease of use, I setup at home shows and always check out the guys with their home control systems... These guys make a business out of low voltage wiring, and nothing wrong with that, my 15 year old can do it, but more power to them... I see the products and they just don't do anything for me, I'll admit I was fooled before. But now here is what I think..
I control my driveway gate, 4 garage doors, driveway lights, front hall light, rear hall light, garage lights, and porch lights from a simple Liftmaster MyQ system {$200 depending on how much you want to do}.
I watch my video system from my iphone {separate system tied into my alarm system}
I can answer my door bell intercom from my cell phone
all of the above equipment is separate and works awesome never have issues with any of it.. My automation system has changed 3 times since I built my house, finsially I think we are done messing with it, but I bet I spent $20K in devices I dont use or broke... The system we have now for the pool lighting, tikki torches, ect, it all works good, but I wish I could do it with the simple myQ garage door opener stuff.. Because when you start adding a bunch of crap to something that is what you end up with...

I hit the zone 2 on button on my avr remote, I push play on a cd or mp3, and I can play music anywhere inside or outside my house.. Sure its one source, but I never needed more than that.... If I was going to do all separate sources, I would just put an apa 150in each rooms closet and a 3.5mm plug or dock in the wall...

Anyway to answer your question, yes IMO a customer that goes with a 13 seer ac system vs a variable speed 21+seer high efficiency system is "better off"...
 
K

konajoe

Audioholic Intern
I'll apologize up front. I'm so new to this that I don't even know how to ask a question correctly.

The house we've been living in has a Niles speaker switch box with 4 buttons. Each button is for an individual room. Each room has a rotary volume dial. We can listen to 1 source in any combination of the 4 rooms, and adjust the volume in those rooms independently.

The switch box looks cheap. So, I've always wondered if that switch box and those rotary dials negatively affected sound quality. I'd hate to duplicate that in a new house if it does. So, do some switch boxes and rotary volume dials do a better job of not messing with sound quality? Do some modern avrs in the $1000 range have the switch box portion built in? We only want 1 source at a time to be available in any combination of the 4 rooms.

(And I'm guessing that a modern avr would allow me to use the front, left, and sub of a 5.1 system as one of the room selections. Right?)
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
To answer your question, I have not heard a modern, properly functioning, selector box make an audible difference in sound quality... The speakers and room are going to dictate how good your sound is...
 
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