Sonic difference in RCA interconnect male jacks

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J

Jack Seaton

Guest
I've found that Bochinno RCA jacks (terminations) made a large sonic difference in my cabling from my Sony 777ES to my pre-amp. I compared the same cables with only the terminations being different. Interconnects used were Cable Research Labs Silver Gold series, one pair with Cardas terminations, the other with Bochinno. Both new, right out of the box, no real break in time.

I'd tried the Cardas terminations first, just to get a benchmark. I listened fro about 1 hour, then switched over to the Bochinno terminated pair. Immediately, there was better frequency extention on both ends and tighter focus. The soundstage focus was tighter with a deeper, blacker background around each instrument. (Same test recording for both cable sets).

You may not be in the market for a pair of $3300 interconnects, but I highly recommend the Bochinno male RCA's for anyone considering making their own, or as an option from a cable manufacturer.

More on this later, I'm late for a dinner appointment.

Jack
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Jack;

Cable Break In is a classic snake oil cable myth. There is no mechanism for cable break in, let alone the termination. While its great that you seem to perceive a sonic difference in the type of termination you are using in your cable you should try a controlled DBT test to ensure it isn't psychological.

Unless the termination is making a poor connection, or it is so corroded that it has high contact resistance, there is no proven mechanism to cause a sonic difference between two different terminations holding everything else constant.
 
J

Jack Seaton

Guest
Cables do break in, even if you are the administrator. As I said earlier, the interconnects haven't had sufficient break in time yet, but so far, the Bochinno connectors sound much, much better than the Cardas terminated pair. So much that my sceptical Wife noticed on her way to her office, which is adjacent to the dedicated listening room.

I'll get back to you guys later.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
So much that my sceptical Wife noticed on her way to her office, which is adjacent to the dedicated listening room.
Amazing, I remember reading a cable review on another website where the author stated his wife also heard differences in cables from the other room. Either some audiophiles have wives with super human hearing or fall victim to placebo effects.

Cable break in is about as non fictional as Bugs Bunny Baseball. Though I find the latter far more entertaining :D
 
J

Jack Seaton

Guest
Well, I can tell that this isn't the place for me. I haven't encountered anyone in the hobby that isn't fully aware of cable break in and that different materials makes a sonic difference. Your calling cable break in "snake oil" is telling of your acuity and perhaps your experience in the hobby. Perhaps you should look at a hobby that does not require hearing and visual acuity?

It is common knowledge that different materials have different sonic signatures, for example Silver conductor wire will have less bottom end and more high frequencies, which is also why A.J. van den Hul offered the Grasshopper in silver coil wires, to integrate with systems that had traditional tube sound, and also for those with low powered SET Pre-amplifiers and amplifiers. I suppose someone with your inifinite wisdom will dismiss this also, afterall, a conductor is just a conductor right? I can see you with your 18 gauge zip cord in hand, ready to hook up your speakers.

I'd mentioned that my Wife COULD and DID hear the difference because she is not an audiophile. She was not told what to say, which interconnect was installed and was not coached in any way. You dismiss it because I am not agreeing with you and your lack of acuity. You may have set up a web-site, but you sure can't hear. What's worse is that you are suppose to be seen as an authority figure, (at least from your standpoint, with your "Administrator" logo and position within your site) guiding the newbies along their path. Fortunately, many will have to step foot into an audio store, where different items including cables can be auditioned, so that the end user can make up his or her own mind. Fortunately there are other audio BBS sites where those who do have the hearing acuity can openly discuss what they hear without being told what they hear is psychologocal. If cable break in is bunk, so is skin effect. If cable termination is bunk, so is materials used in the signal path; Every PNP and NPN Transistor will sound the sam, every Op-amp will sound the same, every resistor will sound the same, every tube will sound the same. Guess what? It can't be explained, so you might as well buy that APEX DVD player, because nothing is going to be better. It is flat earth thinking like yours that makes products stagnant, that reduces progression.

You will not have to worry about me spending much more time here at your BBS, I've already seen what you are about. If you have so little experience with audio that you call cable break in "snake oil", then you are also the type that believes that better quality parts, better circuit designs, better mechanical drives and isolation are also "snake oil".

I called on of my audio friends and told him about your site, he told me not to waste my time replying. He said that you'll likely go on the heavy attack becuase you have too much to lose, being the "Administrator" and all. You may feel free to flame away on me to your desire. I really don't care what anyone with your stance would or could say about me.

Have a nice life, chose another hobby to which you are better suited,
Jack
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Geez, five posts is all you have before any pretense of civility is stripped away! Wow! It's not the record, but it deserves dishonorable mention.

Uh, Jack- just what do you suppose Gene "has to lose"? He doesn't sell $3300 cables (although if he had any brains he would! ;) ), and as far as I can see he can't possibly gain anything by his debunking. I'd say the only guys with a real axe to grind are the guys shilling for the high buck wire.

I wonder why it is that all these things that people purport to be able to discern from several rooms away are virtually always impossible to distinguish under controlled double blind listening tests?

Oh, nevermind. I'm a moderator so I suppose I'm in on the Massive Conspiracy. Gene, I haven't received this months check yet- do make sure it gets sent out ASAP. Gotta get my Rolex outta the shop.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
This one sentence pretty much sums up much of the contention in this hobby.

Rob Babcock said:
I wonder why it is that all these things that people purport to be able to discern from several rooms away are virtually always impossible to distinguish under controlled double blind listening tests?
...not much I can add.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Jack Seaton said:
I haven't encountered anyone in the hobby that isn't fully aware of cable break in and that different materials makes a sonic difference. Your calling cable break in "snake oil" is telling of your acuity and perhaps your experience in the hobby. Perhaps you should look at a hobby that does not require hearing and visual acuity?
It is true that there are not many in the hobby that aren't fully aware of cable break in. BUT, those who are truly aware know that cable break in is a myth. Indeed there are subtle differences between materials, but again they are so subtle that they are irrelevant - those 'in the hobby' are aware of that too.

Its only the clueless 'audiophiles' that always defend their claims by stating that others have poor hearing or poor equipment. How much do you think it cost to make those $3300 RCA interconnects? [Hint: divide the cost by 1,000 and you will be in the ballbark]
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Fortunately there are other audio BBS sites where those who do have the hearing acuity can openly discuss what they hear without being told what they hear is psychologocal.
Jack feel free to discuss your opinions on cables. They are quite entertaining so long as you don't try to push them as scientific facts.

There are plenty of other websites and magazine publications that do cater to the metaphysics and chocolatey midrange magic of cables, but as you are starting to realize this isn't one of them.

Gene, I haven't received this months check yet- do make sure it gets sent out ASAP.
Rob, the check may be low this month since exotic cable sales on our site are at an all time low point. Battery powered cable sales are not what they used to be. However, cable elevators and strand jumping free cables seem to be on a comeback so we shall see :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Cables do break in, even if you are the administrator.


I am a nobody, certainly not the administrator :)

You have an interesting assertion.
You base this on perception?
You should know that perception is not absolute, and can be highly unreliable at times. Humans have bias, uncontrolled and subconscious at that; you cannot turn it on or off.

Hence, as Gene pointed out, you need to check the electrical connection of the plugs to make sure there is not a mechanical cause, then you must do a bias controlled listeing, DBT. No other way out of this. Incontrovertible. Not really up for discussion.


As I said earlier, the interconnects haven't had sufficient break in time yet,


Yes, you keep asserting this. But to date, no one has shown this assertion to be a fact that cables have this characteristics. I guess I can assert the reality of alien abductions, psychics, etc. Does that make it a fact?


So much that my sceptical Wife noticed on her way to her office, which is adjacent to the dedicated listening room.

I'll get back to you guys later.


Did she identify this difference under bias controlled conditions, or just a conditioned response to please?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
gene said:
Cable break in is about as non fictional as Bugs Bunny Baseball. Though I find the latter far more entertaining :D

Sylvia Browne puts on a pretty entertaining show on Larry King talking to the dead relatives of callers :D
But, she is still a no show after accepting James Randi's $1 million challenge. :eek:
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Rob Babcock said:
I wonder why it is that all these things that people purport to be able to discern from several rooms away are virtually always impossible to distinguish under controlled double blind listening tests?

.
In the same room at that :D
I guess, maybe, you do need to be in another room to hear the differences :p
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
gene said:
Rob, the check may be low this month since exotic cable sales on our site are at an all time low point. Battery powered cable sales are not what they used to be. However, cable elevators and strand jumping free cables seem to be on a comeback so we shall see :D
Please, for the love of ... you guys are causing my chest to hurt, my eyes to water uncontrollably. But I just love it :D :D :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I can tell that this isn't the place for me.

Just from this post?

I haven't encountered anyone in the hobby that isn't fully aware of cable break in and that different materials makes a sonic difference.

Perhaps you have been sheltered or hiding from the real audio world? Yes, audio as in any other consumer marketplace, there is another world, the alternate, be it medicine or whatever.

Your calling cable break in "snake oil" is telling of your acuity and perhaps your experience in the hobby.

You base this on what, by his response? Anything else, like some tangible evidence? Maybe some credible publications you can cite?

Perhaps you should look at a hobby that does not require hearing and visual acuity?

You post a couple times and you start attaking the Administrator? :(

It is common knowledge that different materials have different sonic signatures,

Common to whom? Perhaps the Acoustic Society of America? How about the Audio Engineering Society? IEEE? Please, we are trying to learn from posts. Help us out and guide us who has this common knowledge, please.
I'd rather not be in the dark.

for example Silver conductor wire will have less bottom end and more high frequencies, which is also why A.J. van den Hul offered the Grasshopper in silver coil wires, to integrate with systems that had traditional tube sound, and also for those with low powered SET Pre-amplifiers and amplifiers.

I guess then it must be so.

I suppose someone with your inifinite wisdom will dismiss this also, afterall, a conductor is just a conductor right?

Well, I am not sure that he has infinite wisdom.
Some conductors are silver, others are copper, some are aluminum, and some are exotic material for appropriate applications. Some are thin, others are thick. I guess, they are all different. You are right.


I can see you with your 18 gauge zip cord in hand, ready to hook up your speakers.

Now why would he do that? I am pretty sure he would use 12ga or 14 ga. I would.

I'd mentioned that my Wife COULD and DID hear the difference because she is not an audiophile.

Yes, that is what you said, indeed. This is well established in several posts.


She was not told what to say, which interconnect was installed and was not coached in any way.

She only had a 50/50 chance of agreeing with you then. Perhpas if she told you the next coin flip outcome correctly, she is psychic or able to influence the outcome? Or, maybe just chance?


You dismiss it because I am not agreeing with you

Not at all. We are trying to advance the knowledge of audio but you are not helping us. You assert these things. Do we need to just blindly accept it as fact?

and your lack of acuity.

Now how is that even relevant to this discussion? He or I could be totally deaf and it would be totally irrelevant to the issue of your assertions. You asserted you can.

You may have set up a web-site, but you sure can't hear.

Now why is that relevant? But, in reality, you are speculatins, right?


What's worse is that you are suppose to be seen as an authority figure, (at least from your standpoint, with your "Administrator" logo and position within your site) guiding the newbies along their path.

Ah, perhaps you want him to be a dictator? Cram it down, fact or imagination? Real or not?

No, lucky for all this place is open to exchange ideas, pursue truths and facts.



Fortunately there are other audio BBS sites where those who do have the hearing acuity can openly discuss what they hear without being told what they hear is psychologocal.

Well, you are making assumptions, again, that they have that hearing acuity. Yes, there are other websites that do discuss these issues. And they are dictatorial if you take a closer look, but they do conform to your beliefs.


If cable break in is bunk, so is skin effect.

Oh, come now. How are these two the same? Please, now you look a bit foolish.
Skin effect is well established electrical effect of alternating current. You will find it discussed in textbooks and standards. That reminds me, could you guide us to an equivalent textbook discussing cable break in? Or the audibility of silver vs copper wire? Maybe you know more than you lead us to believe. We do want to learn, expand out knowledge but must be difficient in this area. You could help us out greatly. Please.

If cable termination is bunk, so is materials used in the signal path; Every PNP and NPN Transistor will sound the sam, every Op-amp will sound the same, every resistor will sound the same, every tube will sound the same. Guess what? It can't be explained,

It cannot be explained? After, what, 100 years of research, after greats like Maxwell and all the giants? Maybe it is a mystery that is unsolveable?

It is flat earth thinking like yours that makes products stagnant, that reduces progression.

Flat earth thinking? Stagnate? Hi end audio is full of the latest greatest.


You will not have to worry about me spending much more time here at your BBS, I've already seen what you are about.

Do you, really? You should stick around and give us a try. You may like it. You may expand your horizons. Keep an open mind, can you?

If you have so little experience with audio that you call cable break in "snake oil", then you are also the type that believes that better quality parts, better circuit designs, better mechanical drives and isolation are also "snake oil". /b]

Do you know how much experience he has? Maybe you can teach us. You seem to know a lot more. Will you? A textbook will do.

I called on of my audio friends and told him about your site, he told me not to waste my time replying. He said that you'll likely go on the heavy attack becuase you have too much to lose,

What does he have to loose? Please, I am curious. Just tell me.

I really don't care what anyone with your stance would or could say about me.

About you? We don't know you. What could we say about you? You seem to know a lot, please guide us to the audio thruths.

Have a nice life, chose another hobby to which you are better suited,
Jack


Now you are not being nice at all. Why cannot he have this hobby? Why cannot he enjoy it?
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
Bad Atitude

I think this person just came here to perform an atitude check. Didn't get what he was looking for, and if he comes back it will be just to check the number of replies to his post. So why don't we just toss this into the dust bin.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Graz of Perigee Acoustics

Hello everybody, this is my first post here, so I will introduce myself briefly;-

My name is Graz, I am located in Australia, and manufacture ribbon loudspeakers using my own ribbons, and also manufacture oem ribbons.

System referred to - my home system;-

Nuvista 3D, Nuvista M3, Perigee biwire cables with Eichmann bullet terminations (crimp/my own high silver solder), Perigee FK1 Ribbon hybrid speakers (www.perigee.com.au).

My reason for being here - found the thread mentioning Boccino Audio connectors, read it and wanted to contribute my opinion.

I must say that I have been enjoying music and manufacturing kit for some time - and have uncovered many "myths", and as my equipment and knowledge improved this has been easier. The system described above has remained "as is" for 3 years now, with only one detail change, the interconnects. I have two sets of PRECIOUS METALS interconnects, bought from PM's Steve Williams (now departed), and have found them to be a good combination of detail and music when comapared to other cables, differences my system is well able to present in detail. Last year on advice from a couple of friends I tried replacing the WBT ends with Bocchinno Audio connectors. These connectors are substantial "lumps" of pure copper, silver plated - and when you see them you can feel the work that has gone into them - take a look at the pictures on the site http://www.bocchtech.com - mine are "B7" type, in silver plate not gold. BTW machining copper is no picnic - I know as a mfr of ribbon speakers!

I listened and found them to be better in a number of ways, particularly just a fine tweak in focus that my already well sorted and stable system could reveal. After a week I swapped back to the WBT/PM cables for a few days, and noticed the withdrawal of the positive effect - a confirmation. Slight but certainly noticable - I consider that the reality of these terminations is they simply connect the wire to the plug interface in a more conductive way. No snake oil, just an elaborate way of improving on an area of weakness in the audio chain. As mentioned before the system is well sorted, and cabling differences show up readily in such a system.

Reading the price of $3300 for some interconnects sounds scary - perhaps worth a listen! My interconnects from Precious Metals cost about £220 ($400?) with the WBT plugs on, and the Bocchinno plugs cost about $400 if I remember rightly, so I would guess roughly $700 value for interconnects in total would be right. Funnily enough the other interconnects I rated highly were the Cawsey ones using the same Bocchino termination, but I have no idea of the wire configuration. These were about $1500 if I remember...

Lastly - a polite observation. This site seems to have been developed with the idea of audio advancement through truth and open discussion of points - a good thing. Points such as "inactive listening" as raised before are interesting. And tod I have heard several "mystery" song lyrics unveiled from adjacent rooms! In any case - what should never be forgotten is the ammount of time a manufacturer can take to to design, develop, and get a product to a position of being able to offer it. Not all products are made with profits in mind, and in my experience the manufacturer has the last stoney bite of the "cherry" in the audio chain - where much of the real wages are acknowledged achievements and smiling faces of those who enjoy your products!

In peace - Graz
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I think the Mystery Lyrics phenomenon is almost purely perceptual/psychological. I've had epiphanies about lyrics on car stereos or boomboxes after years of hearing them on more resolved systems. It seems to be related more to the mind than the ear. Occasionally an upgrade to a more resolving component or technology leads to this (eg Eximius DVD+Audio software) but more often it's just a fluke.

At any rate, the reason the folk here consider it such a howler is that in a depressingly large amount of cases, despite the Purple Prose used to describe the "vast improvements" in cables, plugs, etc, these purported differences completely evaporate when subjected to unsighted testing. Which is why DBT is so roundly criticized and reviled by the high end rags- if the absurdly priced audio jewelry they write about really doesn't sound any different, then why do we need them to write about it? It threatens their livelihood, but I think it threatens their Golden Ear status even more. What could be worse than having your smug sense of satisfaction in your remarkable powers of perception deflated by the stark truth that you can't really perceive any difference in a blind test?

Therefore, I don't say you shouldn't be able to buy $400 plugs. I only say that if you make claims of sonic superiority, be prepared for skepticism unless you can back up those claims with a DBT.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Therefore, I don't say you shouldn't be able to buy $400 plugs. I only say that if you make claims of sonic superiority, be prepared for skepticism unless you can back up those claims with a DBT.
Don't forget measurements too :D
 
FallenAngel

FallenAngel

Enthusiast
What's worse: snake oil or the antidote?

1. Copper cables have memory. Tie a not on it, untie it and see what happens with shape. Then hang it with a weight attached overnight and it will straighten out again. I do honestly not know if similar things might happen after melting copper to make wire and then send current through it for 50 hours. But I will not discard the possibility until some Nobel price winner tells me so, or at least his/her disciple. It's about atom physics, please spare me attempts to convince me you've seen those electrons mingle around below a microscope.

2. However, the eventual "cable break-in" effect would be small and therefore difficult to distinguish from "hearing break.in". It might apply to any upgrade. We purchase, go back home an pump up the volume with our favourite album. Of course it sounds good, even more since we did our shopping based on previous konowledge and experience. But with time, I'd say 50 hours is enough, we are cured from the euphoria and have also listened to different kinds of music. No surprise if we start to distinguish certain subtile issues, good or bad. for our modified equipment.

Conclusion: don't tell audiophiles nor audiophytes they just have too much imagination and are easy pray for marketing departments. Explain to them what they actually might be experiencing.

Hasta pronto
FA
 
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