Some speaker placement questions

[Shintsu]

I have read some conflicting views on this matter and am now unsure as to what is best for me to do. My two Infinity Qe speakers have been aimed straight (Parallel with the wall) for the longest time, however my room is tiny (8'x8'x10') and I was reading somewhere that they recommend toeing the front speakers in slightly and somewhat aiming them at my head so that each one is not perfectly flat with the wall, but turned towards me. Someone else had told me this destroys the imaging effect where the thing that told me to do this results in better imaging. Erm, so which is it? In a sense I can see why it would be bad for imaging since the sounds are not eminating straight out (as if to implicate the sound is eminating from the TV), but in another I can see why them being aimed at you so that with certainty both speaker's sound fields are hitting you would provide better imaging. Definitely would like to know which is true so I know if I should have the speakers parallel with the wall or toed in!

Another thing I keep seeing that from what I've always known sounds like utter rubbish is to use your surround speakers in say a 5.1 system slightly to the back and left of you and right. Basically this:

Uhhh, I've always thought the way to setup a 5.1 system was to have the standard setup for the front speakers, center, and sub but do this for the back channels:

How the hell does putting the speakers BESIDE you result in a surround effect? They're so close to you that it would make me think the sound is coming from the left or right channels respectively. My computer speakers are setup in the latter way with them behind me and do the role of surround great - the short time I had to put my surround speaker beside me and slightly to the rear it sounded like rubbish. Why do people recommend this, it's the most awful setup I have heard! Every good sounding surround system I've heard that is 5.1 is with the surrounds BEHIND the listener. I was under the impression that 7.1 was basically adding the side speakers, not the rear. Anyone care to enlighten me on why this is supposed to be the ideal setup?

 

[nibhaz]

No right or wrong answer

Speaker toe-in is speaker and room dependent. In other words it is up to you to figure out what sounds best to you with your setup. This means you need to experiment.

Generally speaking though, when you toe-in your speakers you gain a stronger more coherent center image while sacrificing the overall width of the sound stage.

To make things even more difficult, it also depends on the material that you listen to. Some recording will sound better with toe-in while others sound better without it. The key is finding the amount of toe-in that works for most material, and the only way you’re going to find this out is by experimenting.

I suggest making extreme adjustments to start with so that you get a feel as to what is happening to the sound. Once you know what to listen for, you can then start making small adjustments until you find the correct position for your setup.

 

[nibhaz]

Correct surround speaker placement depends on several variables.

1. Material your playing back
2. Type of speaker
3. Room considerations.
4. WAF

I will only touch the first two.

Correct speaker placement for a 5.1 system, is different for multichannel music and movies. So it depending on you your primary listening habits.

Music

Home theater

Home Theater with dipoles surrounds


If you’ve noticed the last link changes things up a bit, because they’re using a different type speaker. With a di-pole you are attempting to put the listeners in the null to create a more diffuse sound field.

Other links to read:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/home-theater-speaker-layout-an-essential-guide

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/loudspeaker-placement-guide

 

[Shintsu]

Thanks for those tips, makes more sense now. I will experiment more with the toe in on my speakers and see if it makes drastic differences. I am only sitting around 4' away from the main speakers and had previously never toed them in but after thinking for awhile that perhaps I wasn't getting the full direct sound of the speakers I toed them in a bit - I'd estimate a 20 degree toe in compared to their previous position. Considering the proximity of the speakers to my listening position do you think this will destroy the imaging or help it as a general?

Also, I'm beginning to notice that where I previously thought a dipole speaker would be the thing to use in my room I am starting to see that since I am the single and sole listener to everything in my room direct radiating rear speakers are probably the most ideal speaker type to use with my system since they will always be positioned ideally to my listening position. I know they say that the rear speakers aren't drastically important since they're mostly just effects and ambience, but given I am using this with THX doesn't THX provide full range to the rear speakers meaning that much more sound will be sent to the rear channels? I have always been told that when using THX that you could (If given the room and money) use floorstanding speakers as rear channels due to the fact they will receive full range from the movie.

Thanks again for both posts, very helpful - and I hadn't seen that last link you posted previously when I was searching on here for that info. Now if only I can find some bookshelf speakers locally - been looking for awhile and haven't had any luck yet!

 

[nibhaz]

Considering the proximity of the speakers to my listening position do you think this will destroy the imaging or help it as a general?

Given the description of your listening position, I would believe that you would most likely benefit from some toe-in. However considering that your speakers use ribbon tweeters, which generally have a wide horizontal dispersion pattern, you might not need to toe them in as much as you would with a speaker using a more conventional tweeter.

I would start by aiming your speakers at an imaginary spot approximately 5ft behind your listening position. Then from there I would reduce toe-in until you get the most convincing sound stage.

but given I am using this with THX doesn't THX provide full range to the rear speakers meaning that much more sound will be sent to the rear channels? I have always been told that when using THX that you could (If given the room and money) use floorstanding speakers as rear channels due to the fact they will receive full range from the movie.

I am not exactly sure what you mean when you say that you will be using THX, but THX spec for a 5.1 system has the surround speakers crossed over at 80Hz. So any standard bookshelf that goes below 80Hz will work in this application. Your subwoofer will handle all of the content below 80Hz.

Full range rear surrounds IMO, would only be needed if you were setting up a serious multi-channel music system, or if you don’t have a subwoofer. Having a subwoofer, would be a much more preferred option.

 

[jostenmeat]

I have read some conflicting views on this matter and am now unsure as to what is best for me to do. My two Infinity Qe speakers have been aimed straight (Parallel with the wall) for the longest time, however my room is tiny (8'x8'x10') and I was reading somewhere that they recommend toeing the front speakers in slightly and somewhat aiming them at my head so that each one is not perfectly flat with the wall, but turned towards me. Someone else had told me this destroys the imaging effect where the thing that told me to do this results in better imaging. Erm, so which is it? In a sense I can see why it would be bad for imaging since the sounds are not eminating straight out (as if to implicate the sound is eminating from the TV), but in another I can see why them being aimed at you so that with certainty both speaker's sound fields are hitting you would provide better imaging. Definitely would like to know which is true so I know if I should have the speakers parallel with the wall or toed in!

As nibhaz has already pointed out, you'll need to experiment. Otherwise, I've read that having the axes of the speakers cross just in front of your face is a good starting point. Also, perhaps an equilateral triangle between the speakers and you. Still, there are always compromises. Certain sites will say that imaging cohesion will falter if the angle greatly exceeds 30 degrees. Then, OTOH, some of the best imaging I've ever heard were with angles considerably greater than 30 degrees. It'll depend on the speakers themselves, the room itself, and where you and your speakers sit in it. Oh yeah, that whole personal preference thing too.

How the hell does putting the speakers BESIDE you result in a surround effect? They're so close to you that it would make me think the sound is coming from the left or right channels respectively. My computer speakers are setup in the latter way with them behind me and do the role of surround great - the short time I had to put my surround speaker beside me and slightly to the rear it sounded like rubbish. Why do people recommend this, it's the most awful setup I have heard! Every good sounding surround system I've heard that is 5.1 is with the surrounds BEHIND the listener. I was under the impression that 7.1 was basically adding the side speakers, not the rear. Anyone care to enlighten me on why this is supposed to be the ideal setup?

The problem was super close proximity, most likely. When people put speakers at a 110 angle, they are trying to straddle both the side and rear areas. When you have a 7.1 setup, you have more flexibility in using 90 degrees for the sides, and I personally believe that is the ideal. The further back your sides are, the greater the "hole" is, so to speak, between them and your fronts. This becomes even more evident/extreme if your mains are close together, or represent a small angle. Panning effects sort of jump from one distant spot behind you, to another in front of you, rather than being as seamless as can be. I have holes too, but we all have compromises. I don't feel like using redundant side surrounds for my multirow theater.

Also, I'm beginning to notice that where I previously thought a dipole speaker would be the thing to use in my room I am starting to see that since I am the single and sole listener to everything in my room direct radiating rear speakers are probably the most ideal speaker type to use with my system since they will always be positioned ideally to my listening position. I know they say that the rear speakers aren't drastically important since they're mostly just effects and ambience, but given I am using this with THX doesn't THX provide full range to the rear speakers meaning that much more sound will be sent to the rear channels? I have always been told that when using THX that you could (If given the room and money) use floorstanding speakers as rear channels due to the fact they will receive full range from the movie.

Yet again, personal preference plays the greatest role in using dipoles. Otherwise, they are not superior for surround duties, or at least haven't been for a long while. All of the surround ambient cues are already embedded for you in the audio tracks.

Thanks again for both posts, very helpful - and I hadn't seen that last link you posted previously when I was searching on here for that info. Now if only I can find some bookshelf speakers locally - been looking for awhile and haven't had any luck yet!

I agree that nibhaz has been extremely helpful to you.