So I went listening yesterday.....

M

Mangoman

Enthusiast
So, I took the advice from here, and grab my reference music, and went to a few spots and listened to a few things. Please note, this room was super wide open, and probably not the best listening environment, and the sales person definitely went out of his way to mention that, and that most of the time, if I loved the speaker in that store, i would definitely love them more at my house.....so that said....

First off, here is what I had at my disposal:
Speakers:
B&W - several series, including the 805 and 803 D3's
Paradigm
Kef
SVS - Subs and bookshelf

AV/Pre/pro/amp
Bryston
Anthem
Rotel

So to start off, I discussed my room, tastes in music, split between music and HT/TV, and we started on a cool path. Basically, the sales guy wanted to gauge what was pleasant to my ears.

Sat me up with an Integrated Rotel RA 1570 and I demo'd the following book shelf speakers

KEF LS50
Paradigm Prestige 15B
B&W CM5 S2

Played some reference tracks for me, as I am super familiar with them, and went through all of these. The KEF's were very cool. Super flat in terms that man, these are reference quality studio monitors. I really liked them, but I wanted just a bit more of high end definition to my ears. Perhaps I was taken back by their appearance, and can definitely see these growing on me.

The paradigms were next up. They were definitely brighter than the Kef's I got the sense that for me, I could really see loving these, but i felt they really shined at louder volumes, and the upper highs were so forward that I might see getting some ear fatigue.

The B&ws were definitely warmer than all three. Had their own signature vs the others, and definitely had a huge edge for lower cvolume listening. I asked if that additional warmth (read lack of definiteion or presence in the treble) could lead to some more muffled listening if I was using vinyl. Might be showing my ignorance here as I am just getting into vinyl. All and all, Id have to flip a coin between the Paradigm and BW's, and didnt like the KEF ones. On to the towers, we demod these

KEF R500's
B&W CM10's (S2)
Paradigm 85F

We ran this set up with an Anthem AVM60 and an A5 amp.

Ill make this short: Big step up, even when plugging in with an SVS Sub (SB16). Obviously the towers felt more alive and fuller, but then adding the sub, there is no contest where I'd like to be. Slim towers with a sub.

The KEFs were very, very nice. I really liked how present they were, so i was preparing to get blown away. I liked them better than everything so far...Even the 805D3's that we fired up before every books shelf so I could get a familiar starting point. Oh yeah, the 805D3's beat all the other book shelf ones with its balanced and more bass response.

The paradigms were very nice. Not as full as the KEF and to me, had too much treble. I heard more in the music that Ive ever heard vs my Klipsch RF15s, noting that I pulled out a guitar track that Ive never really noticed before. Very nice speaker, too bright for me.

The CM10s were my favorites. Very nice, I felt it more rounded than the rest.Wished it has a bit more presence in the treble . Wished it had the perfect balance of the KEF and the Paradigms....if it did, i would have walked out with those. If you made me choose, I might go with the KEFs here, but in my 90 mins, the CM10s were nice. But not $1500 nicer than the KEF ( $2600/pr vs $4000)

Then, yes, I stepped over to run these with the Rotel RSP1572 powered by the RMB1585. I immediately noticed more oomph from that set up. Perhaps the added power?? The Anthem definitely would be the better AV for HT, but I think I might lean to the Rotel. I wish they had Mc Intosh to help put my suspicion to bed....Id like to see if I could get there without the huge price tag....sigh....

Then yes, I ran the 803D3's and for giggles the KEF Blades. The blades were fun. Go try them if you can. Will never own them, and this store was trying to sell the floor models. Bright white in color. Sound truly awesome. Ill stop there since that won't ever happen. BUT the 803's, holy smokes. They had that mixi was looking for. DAMMIT!!!! I knew it. The most expensive item was going to be my favorite. it had all the clarity and warmth that I liked from the B&Ws that I demod, and just he right amount of highs that wouldn't probably fatigue my ears after listening for 2 hours. Oh well. So, I think I am gonna have to go listen to the 803's vs the 804s, which are in my budget range....or maybe seek out some used 803s??? Dunno. I am going to see if I can find that same Rotel and compare it to a Mc Intosh. Fun so far. I fell L can get either the Rotel or Anthem set up and be super happy for a long time. The sales guy was definitely giving his pinion to put most of my budget into the speakers. Basically, buy what sounds great to you in your budget, and weigh it if something matters....in other words, we were having the philosophical opportunity cost vs diminishing returns conversation. Yes, the 803's might sound better, but are they $11k better for an "X" % improvement? Only I can answer that question, but I am sure that whichever way I go, even with the CM10's, Id learn to love them. He also said to make sure to power what ever I ended up with appropriately. His example being, I wouldn't want you powering the 803's with a Denon AVR. using his words "Denon makes great stuff, but I would want those speakers to breathe with the appropriate power." So, down the rabbit hole again tomorrow for lunch hour!!

How'd I do my first real go at this???
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi Mangoman, first of all, congrats on breaking your speakers auditioning virginity.
Now that you've noticed some of bigger differences, it's time to drive it home with a bit of more practise with this software:
https://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

Then, yes, I stepped over to run these with the Rotel RSP1572 powered by the RMB1585. I immediately noticed more oomph from that set up. Perhaps the added power?? The Anthem definitely would be the better AV for HT, but I think I might lean to the Rotel. I wish they had Mc Intosh to help put my suspicion to bed....Id like to see if I could get there without the huge price tag....sigh....
Were these setups were level matched? Did both these pre-amps set to direct mode bypassing any dsp?
If you can't answer with confidence "Yes" to both of these questions, then any conclusions one might do, are not really meaningful nor applicable to which one is better pre-pro.

Yes, I had heard from Gene and few others that say that there is a difference in sound between two amps, operating within their limits, level matched etc..., but I'm personally do not subscribe to that thought school.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They also typically won't bother level matching or putting each pair of speakers in the same positions. Amps/mid/high range AVRs difference in all sorts of distortions are in the decimal places, while frequency response are practically flat 20-20,000 Hz. For speakers, the differences in just about everything measurable aspects are huge relatively speaking, and even moving them a few inches would result in audible difference from the listening position. Doing such AB comparisons in a hifi store is more or less a futile exercise, but can be fun and enjoyable for sure.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Listening to really great speakers you can't afford can make you hate your own system for a while, and can hurt your mental health. Been there, done that.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
@Mangoman I'm glad you went to the store to listen. Yeah, the sales guy is ultimately motivated to make a sale, but that doesn't mean he doesn't genuinely enjoy providing an audiophile moment his customers might not have ever experienced before. After all, it's easier to sell something you genuinely enjoy yourself.

This thread is taking an uncomfortable direction for me. One of the cornerstones of the advice we offer is to go out and listen. Now op has done so, and the prevailing sentiment is not to relish the memorable experience, but to regard the environment and methods with skepticism. It probably wasn't anyone's intention to imply that your auditions were a waste of time, so let me just stress this point. We heartily approve of what you did.

My advice is, if the shop was a national chain, check out a local mom and pop audio store next. You might hear some Golden Ear, RBH, Emotiva, NAD, and other brands you hadn't considered before; and maybe the demo room will be closer in dimensions and furniture to your home.

While reading your post I noticed you observed preferring the speakers with a warmer timbre at lower volumes, while preferring neutral speakers at higher volumes. This coincides with Audyssey Labs' research in psychoacoustics. AVRs with Audyssey apply a warmer curve at lower volumes with Dynamic EQ enabled. Having identified that your observations are indeed a definable concept shared with acoustics professionals might help you while you shop. If you prefer listening at lower volumes then speakers with a warmer timbre might better suit you. If your AVR offers Dynamic EQ and you aren't the sort of purist who obsesses over avoiding EQ and automated room correction, or if you more often listen at higher volumes, then a more neutral speaker would be a better fit.
 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I think the previous posters pretty much nailed it, but, since I have done this very exercise I have to nod my head in acknowledgment. To say that a decent high end show room is "skewed" to save the best for last in the best possible light is no overstatement. I'll join in with the others here to say that unless you have a guaranteed way to level match what you listened to, there's really no comparison point here. Just a few simple clicks on the volume control is the difference between a really good speaker and "one that just came alive". Its funny, its always the equipment they really, really want to sell that sounds "super".

But as you said, its fun to do. You can learn a lot by doing it. As long as you can learn the pitfalls of trying to make comparisons, its a great way to spend an afternoon and learn something about gear. Make your own listening experiences and you will be much better off come decision time. Let your ears be your guide : not magazine articles or experts. The onsite listening experience has some pitfalls, but still, that live audition is hard to beat.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
...and so far you only slightly know the sound of the speakers in this showroom (which doesn't sound too appealing). I wouldn't bother "listening" to the electronics but do sample them all in at least the same mode, which pretty much has to be pure direct to eliminate obvious differences in dsp. Keep listening and try different rooms for audition of even the same model of speakers if you have multiple options, mix it up and get a feel for things as rooms change.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Compared to the Klipsch RF15, the speakers you listened to should have sounded better. When visiting these type shops, watch out for the expensive amp pushers. Buying an amp is OK, if within reason -- however, the key to the gpood overall sound is in the speakers and proper set-up placement.

Enjoy your adventure, however remain focused and do not get too caught up in the character of amps.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think the previous posters pretty much nailed it, but, since I have done this very exercise I have to nod my head in acknowledgment. To say that a decent high end show room is "skewed" to save the best for last in the best possible light is no overstatement. I'll join in with the others here to say that unless you have a guaranteed way to level match what you listened to, there's really no comparison point here. Just a few simple clicks on the volume control is the difference between a really good speaker and "one that just came alive". Its funny, its always the equipment they really, really want to sell that sounds "super".
When I have gone for product training, I always heard the recommendation to show the best first, then step the customer down to the point where they'll no longer accept the lower quality. It's a lot harder to step someone up than down.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
When I have gone for product training, I always heard the recommendation to show the best first, then step the customer down to the point where they'll no longer accept the lower quality. It's a lot harder to step someone up than down.
Top down sales. It works.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
...and so far you only slightly know the sound of the speakers in this showroom (which doesn't sound too appealing). I wouldn't bother "listening" to the electronics but do sample them all in at least the same mode, which pretty much has to be pure direct to eliminate obvious differences in dsp. Keep listening and try different rooms for audition of even the same model of speakers if you have multiple options, mix it up and get a feel for things as rooms change.
That's a great point, some dealers have multiple rooms and customers often have to listen to their target favorites in different acoustic environment. They may agree to move the book shelves and lighter towers, but not the 60 to over 100 lb ones. The comparison will then not be AB as such. Been there, done that too.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
especially when the customer hasn't done their homework.
That's my point. I have done such auditioning many times. The last couple times, I was able to skillfully (I think:), result of my "home work") convince the sales rep to leave me alone and even let me switch the CD's I brought. He's only there when I needed him to switch speakers. One time I went and audition the B&W 802D, the rep first wanted us to hear what appear to be his standard demo amp, a 150W? (might have been less, one model below the 100W one) Musical fidelity. The diamond sounded fantastic playing the high quality recording CD I brought with me, one that has lots of cymbals and bass drums in a couple of tracks.

He then insisted that we (4 of us) wait for him to get another amp. A few minutes later he came back with a Bryston 14B SST, and we all sat and listened to the same tracks again. I was sure he cranked the volume right up to impress, so it was hard to really compare, though the bass drum sounded more impressive for sure. The room was quite big, probably around 28X20 to 25. At the end, he was bragging about the 14B huge difference the bigger amp had made; and explained the need to drive the 802D with something like the 600W/900W/8/4ohm 14B. The guy did a lot of work so we politely acknowledge his point about the need for power, but we all agreed afterwards that the little Musical Fidelity sounded just as sweet, not as loud in that room was about all the difference we could perceive. Since then I was told by one dealer that he used to use Bryston to demo his B&W too, but after he blew a few diamond tweeters, he switched to Classe amps. I never did purchase any B&W speakers but did buy my first Bryston 4B SST and a pair of Energy 2.3i that was demoed also in the dealer where we auditioned the B&W802Ds, 804 and 805S.

Again, such auditioning can be fun and enjoyable, but one has to be prepared to deal with the sales staff effectively. Some of them may not even be interested to talk to or demo their stuff to you, depending on how the communication goes. For those who do, they obviously have their beliefs and would therefore naturally try to convince you accordingly, and expectation bias will then play its part heavily. There is nothing wrong with that, we just need to remain open minded and not make any quick decisions.

Of all the speakers the OP auditioned, the KEF's probably have the better frequency response and distortion performance according to a couple of reviews that include graphs from their standard measurements. So all things being equal, they maybe more on the neutral side and that does not mean most people prefer their sound in demo rooms, but it could mean with proper electronic gear including EQ, it may be easier to tailor them to the potential buys taste.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@Mangoman I'm glad you went to the store to listen. Yeah, the sales guy is ultimately motivated to make a sale, but that doesn't mean he doesn't genuinely enjoy providing an audiophile moment his customers might not have ever experienced before. After all, it's easier to sell something you genuinely enjoy yourself.

This thread is taking an uncomfortable direction for me. One of the cornerstones of the advice we offer is to go out and listen. Now op has done so, and the prevailing sentiment is not to relish the memorable experience, but to regard the environment and methods with skepticism. It probably wasn't anyone's intention to imply that your auditions were a waste of time, so let me just stress this point. We heartily approve of what you did.
Sorry if I am one of those who made you feel that way. I was only trying to help, and wanted to share my own experience, could certainly have chosen better words. Yes, I heartily approve of what the OP did, but do suggest he does his "home work" before going to his next session.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
He then insisted that we (4 of us) wait for him to get another amp. A few minutes later he came back with a Bryston 14B SST, and we all sat and listened to the same tracks again. I was sure he cranked the volume right up to impress, so it was hard to really compare, though the bass drum sounded more impressive for sure. The room was quite big, probably around 28X20 to 25. At the end, he was bragging about the 14B huge difference the bigger amp had made; and explained the need to drive the 802D with something like the 600W/900W/8/4ohm 14B. The guy did a lot of work so we politely acknowledge his point about the need for power, but we all agreed afterwards that the little Musical Fidelity sounded just as sweet, not as loud in that room was about all the difference we could perceive. Since then I was told by one dealer that he used to use Bryston to demo his B&W too, but after he blew a few diamond tweeters, he switched to Classe amps. I never did purchase any B&W speakers but did buy my first Bryston 4B SST and a pair of Energy 2.3i that was demoed also in the dealer where we auditioned the B&W802Ds, 804 and 805S.
If anyone blows tweeters while demo-ing equipment, it's a sign that they don't care about the customer's hearing, doesn't know when an amp is clipping and thinks loud is automatically better.

Any time a sales person starts by cranking the volume, run away. Great equipment sounds great at a low level. I went to a local store to talk about a music server and the system was playing at a very low level, yet the detail was excellent. Granted, the Sonus Faber and Audio Research gear is expensive, and I don't know what kinds of super special cables were used, but it sounds great at all levels when I have been there, with a wide variety of music. When I walked up to the front and stood along the plane of the speakers, the depth of the apparent sound stage remained.
 
M

Mangoman

Enthusiast
Hi Mangoman, first of all, congrats on breaking your speakers auditioning virginity.
Now that you've noticed some of bigger differences, it's time to drive it home with a bit of more practise with this software:
https://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/


Were these setups were level matched? Did both these pre-amps set to direct mode bypassing any dsp?
If you can't answer with confidence "Yes" to both of these questions, then any conclusions one might do, are not really meaningful nor applicable to which one is better pre-pro.

Yes, I had heard from Gene and few others that say that there is a difference in sound between two amps, operating within their limits, level matched etc..., but I'm personally do not subscribe to that thought school.
I can answer YES to the setups being level matched, but I had to shoot an email to the sales guy for the second question. Im learning!!! He did shoot back to say YES they were both in direct mode. So, at least I can have a "whew" to that. Otherwise, Id have to go give it another whirl. Got too busy yesterday to check out the other spot. Should have some time this afternoon before the Wild game!!
 
M

Mangoman

Enthusiast
They also typically won't bother level matching or putting each pair of speakers in the same positions. Amps/mid/high range AVRs difference in all sorts of distortions are in the decimal places, while frequency response are practically flat 20-20,000 Hz. For speakers, the differences in just about everything measurable aspects are huge relatively speaking, and even moving them a few inches would result in audible difference from the listening position. Doing such AB comparisons in a hifi store is more or less a futile exercise, but can be fun and enjoyable for sure.
I agree to both your posts. I am a bit wary, and trying to check emotion at the door while going through this process. (Read - the Magnolia guy only recommends McIntosh and 800 Series BW's) I think what I was really after was the difference each speaker manufacturer imparts on the sound, or the difference between sizes of speakers. I don't have room for anything huge, but would like some great, warm tone. The retailer I went to is primarily a spot for inhalers and designers. Not a big box store at all. In fact, I got to spend time with the owner, and I was the only person in the store while I was there...sans a couple installers looking for parts. the room was wide open so it was reflecting crazy everywhere. Also, I did have to adjust my seat every time we changed things up. I know its not perfect, but it gave me some reference points to help me hone in what I liked. What I like about this store is that just about everything there was avail for a demo at the house. Something I never felt like i would need, but know that it is what you have to do. Its like when I buy an amp....before I buy now, I get it out on a gig and that real life experience will tell me whats up.
 
M

Mangoman

Enthusiast
Thanks for all the input, and to be clear, I am not offended at all by any (and all) suggestions. Im here so I can get skilled in this area and really buy what my home work has pointed me to, and what my ears confirm. There are so many variables to this process, and as I get feedback here, I make my notes (I have a Moleskine notebook for this process...to take notes as I listen, audition, learn, ask questions...questions to have answered, etc). Im doing as much homework as I can, and still keep my day job!! I have learned, that just because one has the funds to buy this and that, doesn't make it great. Just more stuff to fill a house. I want to end this process with me sitting down with a glass of something in my room with a smile on my face, saying "Yeah, this is great" every time i listen. Super huge satisfaction when taking your time, not having buyers remorse, and knowing fully that what is in front of you was the perfect choice. Sort of like saving for your first car in high school...man I loved my Lancia Beta.....
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Nice! I wish I had places to listen speakers that weren't lined up like soldiers at roll call on supermarket shelves. I've been looking at the kef R series, and even the q900's but where I live... nope.
Btw, I walked right by the Excel last weekend before the wild started. Family trip, it was impossible to get a restaurant lol.
 

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