Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
You would think a company charging $18,000 for a product would have used the flagship Denon receiver. But still some richy rich will throw the cash at the name just to say "I spent $18,000 for that device".
 
ellisr63

ellisr63

Full Audioholic
I can't believe that SimAudio didn't know they were doing something wrong... If I had the money I would never do business with them period!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If Simaudio had taken the fully balanced Denon AVP-A1 & rebadged it for $18K, no one would have suspected anything because it measures and performs like $18K. People would have praised it as the best pre-pro ever. :D

Hint***Hint*** Lexicon. ;)

But, no, they got greedy as hell. :eek:
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Were their any reviews of the SimAudio Pre prior to this revelation?
 
Marshall_Guthrie

Marshall_Guthrie

Audioholics Videographer Extraordinaire
Here is an AVS Thread from 2009 questioning the SimAudio CP-8
Yeah, I scoured the internet with about any combination of search terms I could find. There were a couple mentions: one on avs, one on a UK site, and one on a Japanese (I believe) language site where the Simaudio and Denon were mentioned in the same thread. Once you take a look at the display, it looks immediately familiar, so I'm surprise no one took the time to inquire further. I mean, here's Scott Wilkinson posting the press release:

Simaudio Moon Evolution Pre/Pro & Power Amp | Sound & Vision

He either didn't notice the similarities, or did and didn't care. I'm frankly a little shocked at how no one thought to follow through until Audioholics became aware of it. This isn't a small thing.
 
ellisr63

ellisr63

Full Audioholic
Here is an AVS Thread from 2009 questioning the SimAudio CP-8
I wonder what the guy is thinking that purchased one for $18k in the thread and made the comment "I've just paid 18K for said unit so I have to use a 2K switcher because there's no way in Hell a 200 dollar switcher can outperform the 2K switcher because we all know if you paid more for it it's much better than the cheaper product.".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ellisr63

ellisr63

Full Audioholic
Yeah, I scoured the internet with about any combination of search terms I could find. There were a couple mentions: one on avs, one on a UK site, and one on a Japanese (I believe) language site where the Simaudio and Denon were mentioned in the same thread. Once you take a look at the display, it looks immediately familiar, so I'm surprise no one took the time to inquire further. I mean, here's Scott Wilkinson posting the press release:

Simaudio Moon Evolution Pre/Pro & Power Amp | Sound & Vision

He either didn't notice the similarities, or did and didn't care. I'm frankly a little shocked at how no one thought to follow through until Audioholics became aware of it. This isn't a small thing.
Are you the one that posted on the linked page asking if anyone that bought one considered it well known that it was a Denon? I'll bet they're some people pooping their pants right now over spending $20k for it.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
As a Harman fan-boy, it pains me to say it, but yes, and Audioholics broke that story too: Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside | Audioholics

It's a good thing that audioholics is around. Imagine if it were just Stereophile and publications like them letting the high-end companies claim whatever they want.

I have another story in mind that I'm going to pitch Gene soon. Keeping looking to audioholics for the real deal, and keep reading stereophile for the lolz.
I'm sure there will be more of this too come. :(
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
I've known that the CP-8 used a Denon engine all along. When I was a dealer, it was publicized to all of us (bragging that it works). I sold two of those 200 prepro's. I factually told both of my customers it was a Denon Engine. To me at least, that was a selling point. Most "highend" prepro's and HDMI are incredibly buggy. I'll change that text to ALL highend prepro's I have come across are buggy. the prepro section works BETTER (and certainly less buggy) with Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, or Onkyo. But some Japanese prepro IMHO, don't sound good to my ear. Onkyo comes to mind. Small companies go out of business like B&K, ATI, Theta, etc because designing the engine is incredibly expensive and STILL very buggy. When they finish, the HDMI creates them heartache (and returns). B&K's REF 70 got a 20% return ratio company wide (source: Ed and co-owner of B&K). I sold about 50 of those.

If memory serves me, Simaudio WAS distributed in JAPAN by this company called “Denon”. Hence, I fully expect Denon sold them the boards. If they did and they told you that they didn't, don't be surprised. Simaudio isn't dumb Marshall. It's damn easy to see that it is a Denon ENGINE. Good work Sherlock Marshall. Currently Simaudo is distributed in Japan by "Dynaudio". Yea. The speaker company. Guess what.. Simaudio distributed Dynaudio in the late 90's. That sounds weird but it often happens like that all the time.

But the analog section in the CP-8 was dramatically different. Is it worth $18K? Not in to my ear but I am missing only lousy zero in my net worth. Does it sound better? HELL YES! Was it worth it to my customers? Yep! They had that extra zero next to their net-worth. Realize this Marshall. Some people make a LOT more money than you and I and they don't care what thy spend. This may seem surprising to you. But people buying $18K prepro's usually are MULTI millionaires. Don't assume they care.

So the true question is how much different is the analog section. I'm not in the camp that thinks "all amps, preamps, DAC's sound the same". SQ differs in the analog section, reducing jitter in the digital section, and room correction differences. IMHO, the CP-8 accomplished this goal. It was an amazing sounding prepro for someone who wants the very best.

I was told it was very similar to a Simaudio P-7’s (if memory serves me) times all channels minus the volume control advancements. Simaudio also added a deferentially balanced design (not fake balance connectors), beefy power supply, changed the signal path capacitors, used discrete operational amplifiers versus 20 cent semiconductors etc. The end result is the CP-8 DID "smoke" the Denon receiver (which I also sell).

Most of the boards are nothing more than software (room correction and DSP modes) on the DSP. So they could of used an Onkyo board. But they had an ongoing relationship with Denon.

But $18K??? Not for me personally. But do realize that they had large promo’s on the prepro’s when you bought the amp. So $18K is a fictitious retail unless you only bought the prepro. As most vendors know, the profit margin is in the amps. They build prepros to sell amps. Ask anybody who makes these products. I sold the two Sim prepro's as a stack and the customer saved a lot by doing so. Marantz does the same thing with their new 8801. Buy both and the dealer gets a better deal and he passes it on.

Selling DSP boards is nothing new. ATI sold Simaudio the prevous board. They also sold BelCanto theirs. Marshall. There is am article for ya. ATI was 1/3 the price of the Bel Canto. The prevous Simaudio was a EAD. Again, so what they had a different analog section. While we are at it, the former Parasound prepro was the same engine as the Halcro (and 5 others) that was designed in Finland. As you see, it is common place for many people in this industry. And yes, I told my customers that the Lexicon RT-10 DVD player was a Marantz 8400. A RT-20 was a Marantz 9200. Jeremy Frost of Lexicon confirmed it. People still bought them (3X the price and 1/3 the warranty). They wanted the stacked look. They had the money is just didn't care. No. Lexicon didn't advertise that their amps were really Bryston and later Crown, and later ATI. Nor did they advertise that their DVD player was a Marantz and now an Oppo.

If you want another hour of other examples, email me. I own Sound Video here in MN. This time don't think that 5 year old information is "new". I'll give you the scoop before the following decade is finished.

Steve
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I've known that the CP-8 used a Denon engine all along. When I was a dealer, it was publicized to all of us (bragging that it works). I sold two of those 200 prepro's. I factually told both of my customers it was a Denon Engine. To me at least, that was a selling point. Most "highend" prepro's and HDMI are incredibly buggy. I'll change that text to ALL highend prepro's I have come across are buggy. the prepro section works BETTER (and certainly less buggy) with Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, or Onkyo. But some Japanese prepro IMHO, don't sound good to my ear. Onkyo comes to mind. Small companies go out of business like B&K, ATI, Theta, etc because designing the engine is incredibly expensive and STILL very buggy. When they finish, the HDMI creates them heartache (and returns). B&K's REF 70 got a 20% return ratio company wide (source: Ed and co-owner of B&K). I sold about 50 of those.

If memory serves me, Simaudio WAS distributed in JAPAN by this company called “Denon”. Hence, I fully expect Denon sold them the boards. If they did and they told you that they didn't, don't be surprised. Simaudio isn't dumb Marshall. It's damn easy to see that it is a Denon ENGINE. Good work Sherlock Marshall. Currently Simaudo is distributed in Japan by "Dynaudio". Yea. The speaker company. Guess what.. Simaudio distributed Dynaudio in the late 90's. That sounds weird but it often happens like that all the time.

But the analog section in the CP-8 was dramatically different. Is it worth $18K? Not in to my ear but I am missing only lousy zero in my net worth. Does it sound better? HELL YES! Was it worth it to my customers? Yep! They had that extra zero next to their net-worth. Realize this Marshall. Some people make a LOT more money than you and I and they don't care what thy spend. This may seem surprising to you. But people buying $18K prepro's usually are MULTI millionaires. Don't assume they care.

So the true question is how much different is the analog section. I'm not in the camp that thinks "all amps, preamps, DAC's sound the same". SQ differs in the analog section, reducing jitter in the digital section, and room correction differences. IMHO, the CP-8 accomplished this goal. It was an amazing sounding prepro for someone who wants the very best.

I was told it was very similar to a Simaudio P-7’s (if memory serves me) times all channels minus the volume control advancements. Simaudio also added a deferentially balanced design (not fake balance connectors), beefy power supply, changed the signal path capacitors, used discrete operational amplifiers versus 20 cent semiconductors etc. The end result is the CP-8 DID "smoke" the Denon receiver (which I also sell).

Most of the boards are nothing more than software (room correction and DSP modes) on the DSP. So they could of used an Onkyo board. But they had an ongoing relationship with Denon.

But $18K??? Not for me personally. But do realize that they had large promo’s on the prepro’s when you bought the amp. So $18K is a fictitious retail unless you only bought the prepro. As most vendors know, the profit margin is in the amps. They build prepros to sell amps. Ask anybody who makes these products. I sold the two Sim prepro's as a stack and the customer saved a lot by doing so. Marantz does the same thing with their new 8801. Buy both and the dealer gets a better deal and he passes it on.

Selling DSP boards is nothing new. ATI sold Simaudio the prevous board. They also sold BelCanto theirs. Marshall. There is am article for ya. ATI was 1/3 the price of the Bel Canto. The prevous Simaudio was a EAD. Again, so what they had a different analog section. While we are at it, the former Parasound prepro was the same engine as the Halcro (and 5 others) that was designed in Finland. As you see, it is common place for many people in this industry. And yes, I told my customers that the Lexicon RT-10 DVD player was a Marantz 8400. A RT-20 was a Marantz 9200. Jeremy Frost of Lexicon confirmed it. People still bought them (3X the price and 1/3 the warranty). They wanted the stacked look. They had the money is just didn't care. No. Lexicon didn't advertise that their amps were really Bryston and later Crown, and later ATI. Nor did they advertise that their DVD player was a Marantz and now an Oppo.

If you want another hour of other examples, email me. I own Sound Video here in MN. This time don't think that 5 year old information is "new". I'll give you the scoop before the following decade is finished.

Steve
You ignore the fact that it looks like Simaudio is also using Audyssee without paying the licensing fees!

Any way you look at it, this is a money-grab by Simaudio.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Welcome to the board Steve. The home audio hobby is like most others, where you don't get "A LOT" more for "A LOT" more money, in other hobbies I have like hunting for example a Remington model 700 CDL 84078 Remington 84078 Model 700 CDL DM 7mm Walnut/Blue : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com costs 16 times less than a Blaser R8 Baronesse Blaser R8 Baronesse Rifle, 7MM REM MAG, Right Hand : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com both b/a, both in 7mm mag, both kill animals in a similar fashion, I own both of them rifles and they shoot similar as far as grouping shots and cold bore... But the blaser is $15K and the Remmy is under $900... 2 items do almost the same thing albeit they look different they perform the same function.. All hobbies are like this, all fields have "high end" and "entry level", its just how it is...

As far as sounding different, I have listened to many systems and many amps, processors, preamps, avrs, eq's, dac's, ect and do some sound different? Sure, but do they sound better if you a b them? Sometimes that depends on your pockets just as much as your ears...

Steve is rite about people and different tax brackets, I have a customer that would be considered "very wealthy" they installed a $120K heating system {mechanical rather} when I could have had the same results with a $35K system, because it was a little fancier and flashier... $120k to them is probably just over 2 months income, so that is like $20K to most of us, when you "earn" $12K+ a week vs $2K- I would imagine you think about spending money differently.... They buy a $140K g class and I buy a $40K 4 door rubicon, they keep their gclass 2 years vs Ill keep my jeep 4 to 5, money makes different decisions, that is for sure..

Now as far as sim audio, I would think audy would be on top of not getting paid for their product, they may have a deal with denon where they pay it, we simply don't know enough about the situation to start making judgments, I personally could care less, if audy doens't care to look into it, why should I? I don't own a simaudio pro and will never spend $20K on electronics for a single system never mind just a pro, so it doesn't apply to me... And as far asa the people that did spend $18K, if they didn't do their research and compare the pro to a $2000 unit to see if it was an audible difference that was worth the expense then most likely thye don't care so again why should I?
 
Marshall_Guthrie

Marshall_Guthrie

Audioholics Videographer Extraordinaire
If memory serves me, Simaudio WAS distributed in JAPAN by this company called “Denon”. Hence, I fully expect Denon sold them the boards. If they did and they told you that they didn't, don't be surprised. Simaudio isn't dumb Marshall. It's damn easy to see that it is a Denon ENGINE. Good work Sherlock Marshall.
Both Denon and Simaudio have confirmed, contrary to you assertion, that they did not coordinate in any way. Denon did not sell their products directly to Simaudio, they were bought through the retail channel and developed into the CP-8 without Denon's knowledge and permission at the time, and against the wishes of Denon and Audyssey when they were released to market. Perhaps that should have been more clear in the article.

This is one of the points: I know my Pontiac Vibe is the same as a Toyota Matrix. The two companies got together, shook hands, and agreed to share tech. That did not happen here.

I've known that the CP-8 used a Denon engine all along. When I was a dealer, it was publicized to all of us (bragging that it works). I sold two of those 200 prepro's. I factually told both of my customers it was a Denon Engine. To me at least, that was a selling point.
So, there are one of two scenarios at work here.

1) Your customers were told they were buying a Denon. The Denon name was used to polish the tarnished reputation of high-end pre/pro without Denon's permission. Or,

2) The customer was not told they were buying a Denon, and lead to believe that all the engineering efforts were Simaudio's.

Neither one of those is something that anyone should be proud of.

But the analog section in the CP-8 was dramatically different. Is it worth $18K? Not in to my ear but I am missing only lousy zero in my net worth. Does it sound better? HELL YES!

...So the true question is how much different is the analog section. I'm not in the camp that thinks "all amps, preamps, DAC's sound the same". SQ differs in the analog section, reducing jitter in the digital section, and room correction differences. IMHO, the CP-8 accomplished this goal. It was an amazing sounding prepro for someone who wants the very best.

...The end result is the CP-8 DID "smoke" the Denon receiver (which I also sell).
In what way did it sound better? Lower distortion? More (or less) linear response?


Selling DSP boards is nothing new. ATI sold Simaudio the prevous board. They also sold BelCanto theirs.
Agree, but again, the point is that Denon didn't sell their boards or products for use in Simaudio. If you have other examples of high-end manufacturers using proprietary and patented technology and trademarks WITHOUT the permission of the rights holds, I would very much like to hear about it so that we can produce follow up articles.
 
Marshall_Guthrie

Marshall_Guthrie

Audioholics Videographer Extraordinaire
Now as far as sim audio, I would think audy would be on top of not getting paid for their product, they may have a deal with denon where they pay it, we simply don't know enough about the situation to start making judgments, I personally could care less, if audy doens't care to look into it, why should I? I don't own a simaudio pro and will never spend $20K on electronics for a single system never mind just a pro, so it doesn't apply to me... And as far asa the people that did spend $18K, if they didn't do their research and compare the pro to a $2000 unit to see if it was an audible difference that was worth the expense then most likely thye don't care so again why should I?
To reiterate, both Simaudio and Denon have confirmed that there was no permission or coordination. The fact is, they do care, but they've run the cost benefit and it would cost more to litigate than they would ever hope to recoup.

Please see this post: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/87650-simaudio-moon-cp-8-av-processor-denon-receiver-sim-clothing.html#post998300

I have spoken with many of the parties involved, and they are aggrieved.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You ignore the fact that it looks like Simaudio is also using Audyssee without paying the licensing fees!

Any way you look at it, this is a money-grab by Simaudio.
If SimAudio is purchasing off the shelf Denon those fees have already been paid. I doubt there is any legal basis for SimAudio to actually be gone after. Denon can't stop anybody from reselling.
 
Marshall_Guthrie

Marshall_Guthrie

Audioholics Videographer Extraordinaire
If SimAudio is purchasing off the shelf Denon those fees have already been paid. I doubt there is any legal basis for SimAudio to actually be gone after. Denon can't stop anybody from reselling.
Agreed, and once again, I'm no lawyer, but I do think there is legal grounds on the misuse of registered trademarks. Regardless of what's under the hood, you can't use registered trademarks to market your product unless you have permission from the rights holders.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If I were a high-end company, I would use ATI for the amplifier-engine, Denon for the processor-engine, Oppo for the player-engine, Revel for the loudspeaker-engine, Funk for the subwoofer-engine, and Monoprice for the wire-engine . :D

I sure wouldn't use Axiom for any engine. ;) :eek: :D
 
Last edited:
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Agreed, and once again, I'm no lawyer, but I do think there is legal grounds on the misuse of registered trademarks. Regardless of what's under the hood, you can't use registered trademarks to market your product unless you have permission from the rights holders.
This is the heart of the problem. It isn't that they sold a product with Audysee, but rather that they used the TM without permission.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top