Room correction work around on older receivers?

[Carlos rodriguez]

I am thinking of hooking up a Sunfire Ultimate receiver, replacing an RX-V679, and letting the smart TV do all the HDMI switching and all the connectivity goodies. These receivers are in very different leagues, and the Sunfire Ultimate should be an upgrade in sound quality and power for 50/50 HT and music. The only downside I can see is that I will lose the room correction(YPAO) on the modern Yamaha, is there a way around this besides good old room treatments and positioning??

Klipsch RF 63
Klipsch RC 62 II
Klipsch RS 52 II
Klipsch RSW-10D (dual subs)

Thank you,
Carlos

 

[lovinthehd]

Not sure how the Sunfire will be an upgrade in other than power myself, but do you want to add some sort of REQ/processing to the old receiver, maybe something like a miniDSP unit that can provide you with Dirac? How will you connect audio to the receiver from the tv?

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

Will connect all hdmi inputs to tv and send optical out to receiver.

So basically I can adapt a room corrwcting software equivalent to the old unit???

 

[Pogre]

If you're getting the volume you want and like YPAO rc I'd just use the yammy. HD has a good suggestion. Another route (more expensive tho) would be to get a receiver with preouts. Then you could use the amp to power your speakers and the receiver can apply room correction.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Will connect all hdmi inputs to tv and send optical out to receiver.

You’re going to lose more than YPAO with that connection scheme. You’re also going to lose all Dolby Digital processing, since AFAIK all TVs only pass two-channel PCM from their optical outputs.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

You are right! I better keep the modern Yamaha in the HT, and then if needed, upgrade with another modern avr with pre out and an amp.

It would be better to assign the Sunfire to a dedicated 2 channel system, and use a Mini DSP for correction?

 

[lovinthehd]

Will connect all hdmi inputs to tv and send optical out to receiver.

So basically I can adapt a room corrwcting software equivalent to the old unit???

Like Wayne says about passing audio from a tv, your OTA (over the air) content may be 5.1 but hdmi connected devices are more likely to be 2.0 only....what tv? TVs aren't good audio switching centers generally. Which specific Sunfire receiver do you have?

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

The Sunfire Ultimate

 

[lovinthehd]

There's also a Sunfire Ultimate II when I did my brief search earlier...but looking at the Sunfire Ultimate original manual I don't see the necessary connections for an external processing unit, not even for 2-ch.

 

[Bookmark]

If the amp section is still in good order (receiver appears to date back to 2003) then its 200W per channel @ 8 Ohms and 400W per channel @ 4. The receiver according to the reviews has the necessary inputs (8 channel, presumably 7.1) and 10 pre outs (probably the same but with 2 additional sub outs).

The receiver is capable of decoding upto Dolby EX and DTS ES and can power either 7.1 channel surround or 5.1. with an additional stereo zone 2.

From the looks of it you are only missing out on the HD audio formats, Dolby Atmos, DTS X and HDMI input and switching.

So if, as mentioned earlier regarding the amp section, pick up a cheapish receiver with above capablities and use the Sunfire as power in a pre-pro arrangement. You would still require an additional amp for handling the extra Atmos, DTS X or Auro 3D speakers, but that is probably true of any suitable replacement receiver too.

Even at its original price of 4K+ there is little to touch that level of power in the current receivers without going pre-pro.

Using the TV as the switcher will not get you any better decoding than is already present, in fact it will likely downgrade, and only be straight DD or DTS and PCM stereo.

If the amp section is troubled then you are probably looking at a hefty repair bill or having a nice historical paperweight.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/477436/Sunfire-Bob-Carver-S-Ultimate-Receiver.html?page=12#manual Check out page 12/13, sections 13 and 16.

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

If the amp section is still in good order (receiver appears to date back to 2003) then its 200W per channel @ 8 Ohms and 400W per channel @ 4. The receiver according to the reviews has the necessary inputs (8 channel, presumably 7.1) and 10 pre outs (probably the same but with 2 additional sub outs).

The receiver is capable of decoding upto Dolby EX and DTS ES and can power either 7.1 channel surround or 5.1. with an additional stereo zone 2.

From the looks of it you are only missing out on the HD audio formats, Dolby Atmos, DTS X and HDMI input and switching.

So if, as mentioned earlier regarding the amp section, pick up a cheapish receiver with above capablities and use the Sunfire as power in a pre-pro arrangement. You would still require an additional amp for handling the extra Atmos, DTS X or Auro 3D speakers, but that is probably true of any suitable replacement receiver too.

Even at its original price of 4K+ there is little to touch that level of power in the current receivers without going pre-pro.

Using the TV as the switcher will not get you any better decoding than is already present, in fact it will likely downgrade, and only be straight DD or DTS and PCM stereo.

If the amp section is troubled then you are probably looking at a hefty repair bill or having a nice historical paperweight.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/477436/Sunfire-Bob-Carver-S-Ultimate-Receiver.html?page=12#manual Check out page 12/13, sections 13 and 16.

Thanks for the detailed explanation and options for this receiver. This receiver just got serviced and is in perfect working condition. Based on the all the research and feedback , the most useful way to use this receiver would be as a separate amp, with a modern AVR like a Yamaha RX-A1060, or just a dedicated 2 channel hifi system.

The 2 channel system is pretty straight forward, but used as a separate amp with the modern AVR, would the volume have to be fixed at a set level? How do I find this optimal volume level, just let my ears decide??

Thank for all you help guys!!

 

[Bookmark]

Good to hear it's all still in fine working order

The normal practice is usually to fix the power amp level and use the pre amp as the volume control. That way if you are using any of the on board amps in the AVR the levels can be matched.

In a sense the RX-A1060 is actually overkill for this arrangement. It has all the features you will likely need and since you are running the Klipsch speakers all round these should be an easy load for any of the AVRs, unless of course you have had any issues in the past when using the RX-V697.

From a rough look, the 1060 should be able to be configured to drive the additional overhead Atmos/Dts-x speakers via the Surround back/Presence connectors without any further need of amplification, however setting this option in the configuration may affect the results of the pre-outs (need to check the manual for that). You may not be able to get an output for all 7 of the bed channels and may end up with 5.2.4 arrangement instead of 7.2.4 as you may have wished.

Since the RX-V697 is only slightly older than the RX-A1060 the reason for wanting to do this is purely for the Atmos/Dts-X? The RX-V697 already has the necessary hdmi switching (apparently hdmi 2.0 hdcp 2.2) and room correction in YPAO, although it does lack the pre-outs to use the Sunfire as a power amp.

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

Good to hear it's all still in fine working order

The normal practice is usually to fix the power amp level and use the pre amp as the volume control. That way if you are using any of the on board amps in the AVR the levels can be matched.

In a sense the RX-A1060 is actually overkill for this arrangement. It has all the features you will likely need and since you are running the Klipsch speakers all round these should be an easy load for any of the AVRs, unless of course you have had any issues in the past when using the RX-V697.

From a rough look, the 1060 should be able to be configured to drive the additional overhead Atmos/Dts-x speakers via the Surround back/Presence connectors without any further need of amplification, however setting this option in the configuration may affect the results of the pre-outs (need to check the manual for that). You may not be able to get an output for all 7 of the bed channels and may end up with 5.2.4 arrangement instead of 7.2.4 as you may have wished.

Since the RX-V697 is only slightly older than the RX-A1060 the reason for wanting to do this is purely for the Atmos/Dts-X? The RX-V697 already has the necessary hdmi switching (apparently hdmi 2.0 hdcp 2.2) and room correction in YPAO, although it does lack the pre-outs to use the Sunfire as a power amp.

Te reason for using the amp from the Sunfire Ultimate is the very clear difference is the sound quality. The Sunfire has a much stronger amp, and after a few days comparing these 2 AVRs, things sound more defined and everything comes through effortless and with outstanding authority. I like better the sound coming from the Sunfire, but at the same time I would like to keep all the connectivity of the Yamaha, and some cash in my pocket as well!!!

The Sunfire Ultimate sounds amazing and the upgrade is very obvious! Don't get me wrong, the RX-V679 sounds absolutely great, but it's no Sunfire Ultimate!!

 

[lovinthehd]

Te reason for using the amp from the Sunfire Ultimate is the very clear difference is the sound quality. The Sunfire has a much stronger amp, and after a few days comparing these 2 AVRs, things sound more defined and everything comes through effortless and with outstanding authority. I like better the sound coming from the Sunfire, but at the same time I would like to keep all the connectivity of the Yamaha, and some cash in my pocket as well!!!

The Sunfire Ultimate sounds amazing and the upgrade is very obvious! Don't get me wrong, the RX-V679 sounds absolutely great, but it's no Sunfire Ultimate!!

What makes you think the processing in the newer avr may not still be the bigger "sound quality" determinant rather than the outboard amp?

 

[MrBoat]

The room correction workaround with older receivers is simple. Good speakers, and set it up near field style.

HT, and having to satisfy a larger audience with the utmost convenience is what's making things so complicated. That, and the penchant for the almighty open floor plan.

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

What makes you think the processing in the newer avr may not still be the bigger "sound quality" determinant rather than the outboard amp?

I alternated the Sunfire ultimate and the RX v679, and the Sunfire sound better to me. I am not sure weather I'm just getting the power and that makes me believe it is overall quality, or wether it is true SQ. Logic stands with the newer receiver having a better SQ due to newer tech, but my ears say Sunfire.
Would I be correct to assume that to get the best of both worlds, the best solution would be the new AVR with pre outs, and get the power from the Sunfire as a separate amp??

Would any other separate power amp, with comparable power, have the same effect as the Sunfire used as an amp??

As a noob I have 1.7 million questions, thank you for all your help!!!

 

[Pogre]

I alternated the Sunfire ultimate and the RX v679, and the Sunfire sound better to me. I am not sure weather I'm just getting the power and that makes me believe it is overall quality, or wether it is true SQ. Logic stands with the newer receiver having a better SQ due to newer tech, but my ears say Sunfire.
Would I be correct to assume that to get the best of both worlds, the best solution would be the new AVR with pre outs, and get the power from the Sunfire as a separate amp??

Would any other separate power amp, with comparable power, have the same effect as the Sunfire used as an amp??

As a noob I have 1.7 million questions, thank you for all your help!!!

I use my receiver as a prepro (it has preouts) for my separate amp. I let the receiver do all of the processing and surround speakers and my amp powers the front 3. My stuff runs cooler now, but I didn't detect a difference in sound quality at all.

This is my amp. I got it because I had the money and I just plain wanted one for bragging rights, build quality and reliability. I didn't expect an improvement in sq and don't detect one. What you're most likely hearing is a placebo effect, or some different dsp settings in your avr or maybe they weren't level matched. Either way, anything short of instantaneous switching you wouldn't really be able to tell. We humans have a very, very short auditory memory. We can only remember for a few seconds.

 

[ski2xblack]

Would I be correct to assume that to get the best of both worlds, the best solution would be the new AVR with pre outs, and get the power from the Sunfire as a separate amp??

Would any other separate power amp, with comparable power, have the same effect as the Sunfire used as an amp??

Quite possible that your assumption would be correct, but not certain.

Your speakers, while fairly sensitive, are all of the 4 ohm variety. Is your room large? These factors can all lead to transient clipping or other problems, even at normal listening levels. Occasional transient clipping typically goes unnoticed, but if it occurs frequently enough, that natural, effortless sound goes out the window.

The Sunfire is more of a deep breather of an amp than the Yamaha, more capable of reproducing transient peaks in all their unclipped glory, which could be responsible for the differences you experienced.

If it's simply a matter of audible differences due to clipping, then yes, a similarly capable amp would provide similar results as the Sunfire.

But it could be something else, something simpler.

What setting is the impedance switch on your Yamaha AVR set to? If it's in the low impedance setting, it's probably clipping at a much lower output level than it would in the high impedance setting, for example.

 

[Carlos rodriguez]

It is set at 8 ohms!

I use my receiver as a prepro (it has preouts) for my separate amp. I let the receiver do all of the processing and surround speakers and my amp powers the front 3. My stuff runs cooler now, but I didn't detect a difference in sound quality at all.

This is my amp. I got it because I had the money and I just plain wanted one for bragging rights, build quality and reliability. I didn't expect an improvement in sq and don't detect one. What you're most likely hearing is a placebo effect, or some different dsp settings in your avr or maybe they weren't level matched. Either way, anything short of instantaneous switching you wouldn't really be able to tell. We humans have a very, very short auditory memory. We can only remember for a few seconds.

Agreed, its probably a placebo effect, and the fact the I am actively looking for the Sunfire to be better.

When you added the power, didn't your setup feel more effortless, like it was just cruising along even at higher volume?? Things sound a little more separate and defined to me, sort of like when you bass manage or nor, and that is an instantaneous switching, and notable difference.

 

[Pogre]

It is set at 8 ohms!

Agreed, its probably a placebo effect, and the fact the I am actively looking for the Sunfire to be better.

When you added the power, didn't your setup feel more effortless, like it was just cruising along even at higher volume?? Things sound a little more separate and defined to me, sort of like when you bass manage or nor, and that is an instantaneous switching, and notable difference.

No, I can't say that I noticed that. I do notice at pretty extreme volumes (reference levels) there is more of an effortless feel, but I would never listen for long at reference levels if I care about my hearing! Even then, it's not night and day. I could even dismiss it as placebo. Nobody is immune! For all intents and purposes my receiver sounds just as good within its operating limits.

*Edit: Remember, you need to double your amp power just to gain 3db more in spl.