Recs for a Good Solid State External HDD?

Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah...on paper SSD's have more reliability than platter drives.....so excuse me if I go based off the MTBF numbers as well as my own experience instead of someone on a forum spouting "yeah this one time I had an SSD and it failed but my HDD's did not". All electronic devices are susceptible to premature failure, generalizing and saying SSD's are less reliable than HDD's just based on your personal experience with them is silly. Its the same argument that I hear all the time about Hard drive manufacturer X is better than manufacturer Y, which is rubbish.
Aren't we the assertive one. If you really keep abreast of the field you might have heard about this little poll (SSD infant mortality II | ZDNet) from last fall. I agree that the poll was unscientific, in the same way that Consumer Reports reliability numbers are unscientific, because people volunteer information rather than being asked, and unhappy people are more likely to respond. Nonetheless, the proportion of failures noted is off the charts compared to expectations. I also worked in an environment where every notebook drive was replaced with an SSD, and the failure rates were higher as measured by the din of my colleagues complaining as they were having their notebooks "rebuilt". I'd still rather have an SSD in my notebook, but I do raise an eyebrow at it now and again when my system's performance is inconsistent.

As for your comment about USB negating the advantages of SSDs, that is not completely correct. Yes, USB can demonstrate latencies of ~10ms, but USB latency is additive to device latency, and since the random seek times of most HDDs is still in the 10ms range we're talking about ~50% of the total latency. That hardly seems irrelevant, though by my own experimentation the difference does seem unimportant for home content storage use.

Finally, FWIW, I also think saying there's misinformation in a thread and not responding to it directly is bad form.
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
Aren't we the assertive one. If you really keep abreast of the field you might have heard about this little poll (SSD infant mortality II | ZDNet) from last fall. I agree that the poll was unscientific, in the same way that Consumer Reports reliability numbers are unscientific, because people volunteer information rather than being asked, and unhappy people are more likely to respond. Nonetheless, the proportion of failures noted is off the charts compared to expectations. I also worked in an environment where every notebook drive was replaced with an SSD, and the failure rates were higher as measured by the din of my colleagues complaining as they were having their notebooks "rebuilt". I'd still rather have an SSD in my notebook, but I do raise an eyebrow at it now and again when my system's performance is inconsistent.

As for your comment about USB negating the advantages of SSDs, that is not completely correct. Yes, USB can demonstrate latencies of ~10ms, but USB latency is additive to device latency, and since the random seek times of most HDDs is still in the 10ms range we're talking about ~50% of the total latency. That hardly seems irrelevant, though by my own experimentation the difference does seem unimportant for home content storage use.

Finally, FWIW, I also think saying there's misinformation in a thread and not responding to it directly is bad form.
So....what? This unscientific poll from end users proves your point somehow? The majority of our end user machines at work run SSD's for boot drives. In the year and a half I've been there I have not had one SSD failure (60 or so machines) and several HDD failures.

USB latency adds AT LEAST 10ms. Which completely negates the most noticeable performance increase over HDD's, Seek time or random access time as 10ms is around the speed of your average 7k HDD. Now add to that most consumer grade chipsets have the USB ports on a slower bus than the SATA ports you add even more of a performance hit if you were to go the external route vs internal. SSD's don't measure seek time in milliseconds they are measured in microseconds....that alone should be enough to tell you that adding latency in milliseconds will have a drastic performance detriment.
Finally, FWIW, I also think saying there's misinformation in a thread and not responding to it directly is bad form.
I came into the thread too late.....just in time to view the train wreck of bad suggestions and misinformation.....I'm not gonna go through each post and correct each statement.....this is the reason I don't frequent this forum very often anymore.....

OP - all of this banter is irrelevant if you go with a device that supports mirroring (RAID1) as sholling and myself suggested earlier.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So....what? This unscientific poll from end users proves your point somehow? The majority of our end user machines at work run SSD's for boot drives. In the year and a half I've been there I have not had one SSD failure (60 or so machines) and several HDD failures.
So let me understand this. You're upset because I provided a datapoint that questioned your unsupported assertion, and your counter is your own anecdotal evidence with a smaller population? I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, when I quoted the MTBF numbers and called it a wash. I was just taken aback by your obnoxious behavior.

latency adds AT LEAST 10ms. Which completely negates the most noticeable performance increase over HDD's, Seek time or random access time as 10ms is around the speed of your average 7k HDD. Now add to that most consumer grade chipsets have the USB ports on a slower bus than the SATA ports you add even more of a performance hit if you were to go the external route vs internal. SSD's don't measure seek time in milliseconds they are measured in microseconds....that alone should be enough to tell you that adding latency in milliseconds will have a drastic performance detriment.
Here you go again. A 50% reduction in average latency is not "completely negated" performance; random access performance will still be better with an external SSD than an external HDD. And you're comparing mere manufacturer specs with typical measured averages. Of course, again, I don't why I'm arguing with you, since I recommended HDDs and postulated forecasted little performance difference for use with video or audio content.

came into the thread too late.....just in time to view the train wreck of bad suggestions and misinformation.....I'm not gonna go through each post and correct each statement.....this is the reason I don't frequent this forum very often anymore.....
Oh give us a break. If you're so lazy as not to be willing to address the issues as you see them, there are not that many posts in this thread, no less ones with misinformation, then why bother to respond at all? Because you think we're all entitled to your opinion? :)

- all of this banter is irrelevant if you go with a device that supports mirroring (RAID1) as sholling and myself suggested earlier.
And this is a reasonable suggestion.
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
*Grabs drink and settles in*
So let me understand this. You're upset because I provided a datapoint that questioned your unsupported assertion, and your counter is your own anecdotal evidence with a smaller population? I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, when I quoted the MTBF numbers and called it a wash. I was just taken aback by your obnoxious behavior.



Here you go again. A 50% reduction in average latency is not "completely negated" performance; random access performance will still be better with an external SSD than an external HDD. And you're comparing mere manufacturer specs with typical measured averages. Of course, again, I don't why I'm arguing with you, since I recommended HDDs and postulated forecasted little performance difference for use with video or audio content.



Oh give us a break. If you're so lazy as not to be willing to address the issues as you see them, there are not that many posts in this thread, no less ones with misinformation, then why bother to respond at all? Because you think we're all entitled to your opinion? :)



And this is a reasonable suggestion.
SSD <1ms seek time.
SSD connected via USB >10ms seek time.
I don't know how that comes to ~50% performance loss but sure.....with data storage, latency=seek time or time the data takes to be read/writeable.

I'm not upset at all - I'm just trying to point out to the OP that "I had an SSD once and it failed - SSD's have reliability issues" is not a basis for forming anything provable about reliability. Thats basically a summary of the SSD vs HDD by several members posting in this thread.

Again I don't care - I am only trying to point the OP in the right direction and help him make the most informed purchase. When suggestions are based on bias and lack of a scientific analysis they need to be called out as such. The best reliability numbers you can go off are the MTBF numbers. All of which point to SSD's being more reliable.

This is the internet - everyone else is entitled to everyone else's opinions. Also arguing on the internet....something something....I think there is an adage about it being pointless or something...
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Hi. Sorry if I came across the wrong way. I was just making a comment about the arguing to try and lighten the mood. :)
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
*Grabs another drink and settles back in.*

I miss "A:" Drives.

Anyway.. glad I read this thread. I'm super happy with the SS benefit in my laptop- and I wondered about upgrading to SS for all my media storage. I can keep wondering.



:D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
SSD <1ms seek time.
SSD connected via USB >10ms seek time.
I don't know how that comes to ~50% performance loss but sure.....with data storage, latency=seek time or time the data takes to be read/writeable.
I'll go over it for you one last time.

Average seek latency for an SSD on USB = ~10ms.

Average seek latency for an HDD on USB = ~20ms.

There's not a 50% performance loss, there's ~50% less latency when using an SSD than when using an HDD on USB, using these made-up latencies based on mere specifications.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Hi. Sorry if I came across the wrong way. I was just making a comment about the arguing to try and lighten the mood. :)
If you're going to inject levity with sarcasm don't be a pussy foot about it and apologize later. It was good sarcasm.
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
I'll go over it for you one last time.

Average seek latency for an SSD on USB = ~10ms.

Average seek latency for an HDD on USB = ~20ms.

There's not a 50% performance loss, there's ~50% less latency when using an SSD than when using an HDD on USB, using these made-up latencies based on mere specifications.
Oh ok now I understand why we are arguing. I was making the argument of USB vs internal SATA controller, not USB SSD vs USB HDD. Now I understand where you are coming from. Yes the SSD would still be faster regardless - what I was saying is that putting the SSD on a USB bus as apposed to a SATA/SAS bus would destroy its performance.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not going to get into the middle of the debate but I do want to point out a couple of things. There are two ways to calculate MBTF, the first records real world results of a few hundred test samples in the QC lab which is of course impractical. The other is to take a SWAG (scientific wild a.. guess) based on wear and tear assumptions that are in turn based on an assumption of perfect components (bearings, platters, and motors in a spinner, and perfect controllers with perfectly optimized firmware and perfect memory in an SSD) reaching assembly and perfect assembly of those parts. Of course that completely ignores the effects of poorly designed controllers and buggy firmware like the now cured Crucial 5184 hour bug or the poor garbage collection routines found in some other brands. This is significant because poor contollers and poor firmware seems to be the leading causes of premature failure. Speaking of garbage collections we also need to keep in mind that TRIM only works with AHCI (and a very few RAID controllers) and only with some AHCI controllers and only with newer OSs and only with the latest TRIM ready drivers and probably won't function over USB. You're not deleting a lot from a media drive but it's something to be aware of.

From a crucial change log.
Crucial SSD firmware bug, crashes/BSOD | caustik's blog
Correct a condition where an incorrect response to a SMART counter will cause the m4 drive to become unresponsive after 5184 hours of Power-on time. The drive will recover after a power cycle, however, this failure will repeat once per hour after reaching this point. The condition will allow the end user to successfully update firmware, and poses no risk to user or system data stored on the drive.
Samsung has issues with their latest as well.
AnandTech - Samsung Explains The Firmware Bug Causing The Failures of SSD 840/840 Pro

Further resources:
AnandTech - Storage
Investigation: Is Your SSD More Reliable Than A Hard Drive? : SSD Reliability: Is Your Data Really Safe?

Anyway I'll let you get back to your regularly scheduled debate. :p

pocorn.gif
 
Last edited:
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Just curious - where did you find 10ms latency time on usb 3.0 specs?
I did reread original post and now I am 100% convinced than
A) OP needs to get with regular HD disks solution because of -
B) He'll need much more than 1Tb of space for media collections and backups
Keep in mind that Raid is not a backup, but it's much better than a single drive. I recommend a cheap 4 bay NAS with ability to run raid 10. with few caveats , Raid 10 offers great both read and write performance and redundancy up two * disk could fail
yes - you loose half the space, but sata disks is going back to be dirt cheap again.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
My experience with literally thousands upon thousands of HDDs and SSDs in enterprise server and workstation environments is that HDDs are overwhelmingly more reliable long-term. And the failure modes are much more predictable, recognizable, and understandable. SSD is still a relatively young technology. HDDs are amazingly mature.

I love SSDs. I have SSDs as the primary OS drives in all my personal PCs, but not in my servers at home or at the office. Our technical reps at Dell, NetApp, and VMWare all also recommend specifically against them because they simply have a tendency to prematurely fail, often in bizarre ways that are really difficult to trace. Just last year we had to swap out a pair of SSDs being used in RAID 1 for a simple VMWare ESXi host because the host would randomly throw strange USB errors and disconnect from vCenter, leaving the virtualized servers with no ability to migrate or recover from failure. It was a massive pain in the butt, and it turned out that one of the SSDs was just silently failing.

I think this has a lot to do with firmwares as much as silicon. Most of the companies making SSDs, like Crucial, OCZ, Intel, and Sandisk just don't have a ton of experience in that kind of storage the way companies like Seagate and Hitachi do.

SSD is really not the right technology for the OP anyway. SSD is great where you really want super-low random seek times or very very low power consumption. That means OS drives and laptop drives. High-capacity backup and media drives are completely different. What I think the OP really seems to want is a simple 1 TB 2.5" portable USB drive. These are like $80.

Of course, I'd also strongly recommend that he get two of them. He could use one of them as a backup for all of his important things and keep it in his desk at work for an offsite backup.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Funny enough we are running production ESXi servers from HP Proliant DL360 G7 boot from special CF card :), but all VMs presented to ESXi using NFS from Netapp san (regular 15k sas disks) - so far 0 issues. Knocking on wood 3 times
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Just curious - where did you find 10ms latency time on usb 3.0 specs?
My 10 millisecond SWAG isn't from the USB specifications, it's just what most devices will see on a good USB implementation. USB wasn't conceived for low latency, the way the communications protocol functions means it is unlikely to demonstrate PCIe-like latencies (100s of nanoseconds) or SATA-like latencies (100s of microseconds). The USB transfer rates look impressive (5Gbps in 3.0), but as with any interconnect the physical transfer rate is only one factor. The problem with most interconnects is not that they transmit slowly, it's that they don't transmit often enough or respond quickly enough. :)
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
My 10 millisecond SWAG isn't from the USB specifications, it's just what most devices will see on a good USB implementation. USB wasn't conceived for low latency, the way the communications protocol functions means it is unlikely to demonstrate PCIe-like latencies (100s of nanoseconds) or SATA-like latencies (100s of microseconds). The USB transfer rates look impressive (5Gbps in 3.0), but as with any interconnect the physical transfer rate is only one factor. The problem with most interconnects is not that they transmit slowly, it's that they don't transmit often enough or respond quickly enough. :)
OCZ Enyo USB 3.0 Portable SSD review - SSD Performance HD Tune PRO
Looking at numbers above 10ms does seem like a SWAG and worst case scenario one. Minimal USB3.0 latency is 0.125ms and it has been improved to asynchronous rate. Lets be honest that SSD connected with usb 3.0 absolutely kills any HD connected with sata, now this doesn't change the fact OP still doesn't need it.

About SSD reliability, I mentioned before it will be most likely higher for archiving purposes, but what about being in use? Well, SSD wears off during writes, not reads. TRIM and Garbage collections are designed to manage it and do with various levels of success.
Failure rate? Well, I wasn't exposed to hundreds of SSDs, but early ones did in fact had a very short life span - 1-2 years in working environment. Later models do offer significant improvident and AHCI support is pretty much standard now days in any new pc and OS starting from Vista, but also with Linux and BSD as well
Advanced Host Controller Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
OCZ Enyo USB 3.0 Portable SSD review - SSD Performance HD Tune PRO
Looking at numbers above 10ms does seem like a SWAG and worst case scenario one. Minimal USB3.0 latency is 0.125ms and it has been improved to asynchronous rate. Lets be honest that SSD connected with usb 3.0 absolutely kills any HD connected with sata, now this doesn't change the fact OP still doesn't need it.
The 10ms figure was not a worst case scenario, it was actually an optimistic one in my mind, based on some latency measurements I've seen. Most published measurements for USB 2.0 were showing more like 15ms, and I didn't think interrupts and pipes would improve random access latency so much. (Interrupt-driven operation was intended for power savings rather than performance.) I'm still a little suspicious that the numbers in that link only apply to bulk transfers and not random access operations, but, whatever, I'll fold, because I can't find any better numbers available yet. Those numbers also put USB 3.0 roughly on par with SATA, which is very surprising.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
I thought AHCI didn't work over USB, am I mistaken?
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top