Receiver Reliability - the 4K upgrade

[Trev]

Going to be going 4K by Boxing day the latest, finally budget allows me to replace receiver after going on an unexpected trip with a babe. I was looking at the Denon X4000, but after reading a bunch into it and speaking with a few dealers, seems they have a problem with transistors burning out.

Lead me to looking at Onkyo's TXNR737... though with my bad luck of receivers overheating or fans dying out etc, ... the two year warranty just doesn't seem appealing at all.

Leads me to the question; which AVR manufacturers of this year and next are offering up warranties above the norm and in terms of service who do you trust? Any success stories of brands providing service outside of warranty free of charge without having to pull teeth?

 

[Cos]

If you are purely buying a receiver to go 4k, then don't buy one now. That is my two cents.

In order to be "Future Proof" I would strongly suggest that you wait until a receiver supports full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 & HDCP 2.2
1. HDCP 2.2 is going to be the copy protection required to do 4K once the Blue Ray Players, etc. comes out
2. The current batch of Receivers either support only HDMI 2.0 or HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 (NOT full bandwith)
3. Full Bandwidth will allow the 4:4:4 and deep color benefits of 4K TVs

The only receiver I have heard at this point might support HDCP 2.2 is going to be the Marantz AV8802 which will be at least 3k+ Retail. My suggestion is to skip this current batch of receivers until the 4K Standard is fully realized, which should be by the time the 4k Blu Ray players come out. I would also be wary of Onkyo as the reliability has been a major issue, so much that they had to extend the warranties of specific models due to major issues. I apologize that I threw out a lot of technical mumbo jumbo, I don't even fully understand it yet, but the fact remains you are better off waiting IMO.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I love my onkyo tx sr805, but i can't recommend the 737. Onkyo really cut down the features on it. Go with x4000 and you won't regret.
I agree with cos, don't worry about 4k. Unless you have a 100 inch screen that is.

 

[Trev]

Thanks Cos. I had no idea about HDCP. I wish it were purely an interest in jumping to 4K. I've had my HK for about 6-7 years now I believe, and I have fan grinding, overheating, and intermittent black outs for video over HDMI. My source is a high end gaming rig that puts out audio and video over single HDMI over a 5.1 setup. I had polks that had gotten damaged during a move, now using a 5.1 Technics set temporarily.

I have a 10K budget on standby... but... this day in age, you know that 10k is credit, not surplus, so I still only want to make a purchase once and can't afford to be frivolous. If my HK were running properly, I would really, really rather replace my speakers at the moment. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

Is there any ETA on when HDCP will become more standard? Is the 2.2 not run-able via firmware update? Thanks for the Onkyo feedback as well. Are there any good sub $1200 alternatives besides the Onkyo and X4000 Denon worth mention in terms of overall brand reliability? I've seen a lot of Yamaha last throughout the years.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Avr manufacturers probably could have added new features thru firmware, but most of them don't. Only fix major bugs.
Instead of new avr, you probably better of getting new speakers.
Yamaha does indeed have solid reputation for reliability, but i would prefer denon /marantz due to audessey is better system

 

[Cos]

Avr manufacturers probably could have added new features thru firmware, but most of them don't. Only fix major bugs.
Instead of new avr, you probably better of getting new speakers.
Yamaha does indeed have solid reputation for reliability, but i would prefer denon /marantz due to audessey is better system

It's my understanding from my research that the HDCP 2.2 Solution was expensive and required multiple components and not integrated as a one chip solution. I think that issue has been fixed, but it is definitely not a firmware upgrade like Sony did with the HDMI 2.0.

 

[selden]

If you can wait a year, you should. If you have to buy something now, you might want to consider getting something really inexpensive, saving most of your money for next Christmas.

Current rumors are that 4K Blu-ray discs might start being available for Christmas, 2015, i.e. a year from now, so that's when compatible consumer entertainment equipment would need to be available: players, receivers and displays. The HDMI v2 chipsets with HDCP V2.2 are not expected to be available to receiver manufacturers until next spring, so AVRs using them probably wouldn't be available until next fall. Many AVR manufacturers tend to release their new models in early summer, though, so I fear many of the 2015 models actually will not be able to ship with full-function chipsets

I really don't think the new HDMI chipsets will be available in time for the Marantz AV8802 pre/pro, which seems likely to be available in March.

(Personally, I'm not planning to upgrade to 4K for at least a couple of years. My 1080p 2D projector is still going strong. I'd been thinking about upgrading the sound system from 5.1 to 11.1 for a couple of years, though, so this summer's availability of Atmos-capabale receivers at not-too-outrageous a price was enough to push me over the edge.)

 

[crossedover]

I'm confused why anyone without an 80+ inch screen would care about 4k. It's absolutely irrelevant unless you do

 

[GIEGAR]

Thanks Cos. I had no idea about HDCP. I wish it were purely an interest in jumping to 4K. I've had my HK for about 6-7 years now I believe, and I have fan grinding, overheating, and intermittent black outs for video over HDMI. My source is a high end gaming rig that puts out audio and video over single HDMI over a 5.1 setup. I had polks that had gotten damaged during a move, now using a 5.1 Technics set temporarily.

I have a 10K budget on standby... but... this day in age, you know that 10k is credit, not surplus, so I still only want to make a purchase once and can't afford to be frivolous. If my HK were running properly, I would really, really rather replace my speakers at the moment. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

Is there any ETA on when HDCP will become more standard? Is the 2.2 not run-able via firmware update? Thanks for the Onkyo feedback as well. Are there any good sub $1200 alternatives besides the Onkyo and X4000 Denon worth mention in terms of overall brand reliability? I've seen a lot of Yamaha last throughout the years.

Trev, if you can't limp home with the HK an excellent option is this new Denon AVR-4520CI from Accessories4less for $1100 shipped. It's the "Made in Japan" flagship, which gives some assurance that reliability will be better than average. The warranty is 3 years. I just noticed you're in Canada... this may only be an option if you can drive across the border and pick the unit up from a US address.

For future integration of this unit in a 4K "system", you'd need to look for compliant 4K players with dual HDMI outputs (like an Oppo BDP-103 replacement). One HDMI would feed direct to the 4K display for video and the second would feed the AVR for multichannel audio. Actually, others may confirm/deny whether this would work, as I'm not positive if the whole HDMI transmission is blocked or just the 4K video if the HDCP 2.2 "handshake" doesn't occur.

If you haven't seen it, here's a good article on HDMI 2.0 & HDCP 2.2: http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/hdmi-2.0-hdcp-2.2. In reference to the above, it says (my bold):

HDCP 2.2 is all about protecting 4k content. That means if you want to stick with 1080p for the time being, you don't have to worry about HDCP 2.2. If you do want 4k content, every device in your video chain must have HDCP 2.2.

 

[GIEGAR]

I'm confused why anyone without an 80+ inch screen would care about 4k. It's absolutely irrelevant unless you do

You appear to be only talking about increased resolution, but 4K offers a number of other improvements as listed here: http://www.audioholics.com/hdtv-formats/4k-blu-ray-discs-players-arrive-2015-analysis. Of those, I'd guess that the OP is probably most interested in the potential for 60 frames/sec for his gaming.

In terms of 4K resolution, yes you'd only begin to see a benefit when viewing a 80" screen from less than about 8 feet, according to the chart here: http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/. (< Lots of good discussion in the article and the comments that follow.)

 

[herbu]

I have a 10K budget on standby... but... this day in age, you know that 10k is credit, not surplus

It seems pretty clear there is an unsettled future in AVRs today... even regarding formats & standards. Lots of cool stuff in its infancy. Since your "budget" is credit, not savings, I'll put on my old man's hat and tell you to go CHEAP now. Not low quality, but inexpensive. Wait to go for the latest, greatest bells & whistles until you can at least pay half with your savings. Start saving the same payments you would pay for your credit card. By the time you have enough saved, perhaps the choices will be more clear.

 

[Trev]

Thankfully I live 20-30 from the border and there's a drop shipping location that holds packages for $7 for 30 days.

If you take a look at any 27" iMac or new 5K iMac there really, really is a visible difference in sub-60" displays imo.

I don't think I could get my AVR to limp for a year. I do think, as much as I'd love to have 4K for my display res off my PC, you guys are right regarding this not being the right time yet. FML, I hate buying gear twice. I guess I'll just have to put effort into keeping new purchases good condition for resale. Seems now then I should hunt a < $600 1080p AVR with the standard HD audio formats of previous years to help me through the next year, and focus on speaker upgrades... which will also need to be a buy to tide me over until I can afford an end game setup.

My home machine has been my Home Theater with BR drive, gaming rig, workstation, and Recording Studio. Stereo Genelec monitors have been phenomenal for music, I just have no idea how they do for home theater audio - and I aim to find that out before looking at Imagines. In the meantime... I think I would be happy with a 5.1, potentially with tower fronts and electrostatic tweeters. Tall order for a want of a price under $2000 I wager, but... Black Friday and Boxing Day are around the corner and I have access to American pricing. Bookshelf fronts would also open up a lot more free shipping options.

Any approx. $600 AVRs with previous year's tech with a fair amount of power you guys know off the top? I know it was a major kick when I bought my HK for $800 something and a month later I was offered a polk bookshelf set for $500, and they were throwing the same AVR in for free. Mine'd even been open box for the $800. It may be favorable to bundle speaker and and receiver for $2500 range.

I was offered a price of $2K for Definitive 8060: http://www.gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/definitive-technology-bp8060st-system-bp8060st-system-p-9558.html

Bundled with TX-NR737 @ $850.

I've never heard any Definitive in person.

 

[GIEGAR]

You had me at Genelec!

Personally, I reckon that powered pro monitors are simply superb for HT and gaming. They're accurate, adjustable, play loud with low distortion and are capable of cracking dynamics. I really don't know why they're not a more popular solution. Their looks probably have something to do with it.

Take a look at the range from Emotiva Pro: https://emotiva.com/products/emotiva-pro/powered-monitors-0. (If you can... their server seems to be operating at glacial speed.)

Just going on your budget and not knowing your room configuration, you could go for 3 X Stealth 6's across the front, a pair of Airmotiv 5s' for surrounds and a (optional) pair of Airmotiv 4s' for rears. All these are currently on sale and come to around $1600 (with E-Club discount). For fidelity, clarity and dynamic capability, these would slaughter similiarly (and higher) priced sets of seven cone 'n' dome passive speakers.

Drive the monitors straight off a balanced pre/pro for best results. This factory refurbished Marantz AV7005 from Accessories4less ($800 shipped) is a couple of years old now but has all the features you need, including a good level of Audyssey MultEQ. It's rated to output 2.5V through the 7.2 balanced XLR pre-outs, so it will easily drive the Emo's to full power.

Now... how are you off for subs?

 

[Trev]

My buddy just coincidentally, like his ears were burning, offered me two Genelec 6020a for $400. I'm taking them. Foot is in. At the price, ... I just ... can't say no. If they don't do it for me for HT... they'll serve for Vinyl stereo setup or monitors for my Focusrite and personal recording / producing.

Much as I want a house, likely buying a 2 1/2 Condo with likely a 20x30 foot living room, configurable deep or wide to give flex on how the speakers will sound best. Setup likely go deep, putting the sofa far enough from the back wall for surrounds on stands.

 

[GIEGAR]

The Genelec 6020a's look like great little speakers. I fear their maximum output wouldn't be enough for a satisfyingly loud HT/gaming experience at the longish listening distances likely in a 20' x 30' or similar room. They would probably be very good performers as surrounds &/or rears though.

Here's an option for the LCR's if you were to use the Genelecs as surrounds: KRK Rokit Powered 10-3. They go for about $500 each. (http://www.amazon.com/KRK-Mid-Field-10-Inch-Powered-Monitor/dp/B005NKNSV0) These are apparently one out of the box and miles better than the smaller 2-way Rokits, due mainly to the very good implementation of the 4" midrange.

As far as the room goes, if you have a choice of configuration, look for the one where the room is symetrical about the main listening axis. This will ensure that the room's effect on the main L&R speakers will be roughly the same.

Also in a largish room, don't forget to consider setting it up on the diagonal, with the display across one corner. If it suits the room, this can be a superb solution because early sidewall reflections from the mains can be eliminated and surrounds/rears can be placed at a greater distance for a more dispersed surround soundfield.