Receiver and Amplifier Help

[Odessa_Man]

First off, thank you Audioholics for providing such a rich environment for like minded people to gather and share ideas.

My problem: I have an Onkyo TX-NR636 receiver, Klipsch R-28 mains, center, rears and 2 subs. I recently purchased an Onkyo M-5010 amplifier to help push my speakers to lighten the load of my receiver. I have ATT uverse and an LG 65" UHD TV which I watch netflix and hulu on. My ATT is HDMI, my TV is optical. My zone 2 is only analog, so I ran both HDMI and RCA from my cable box to my receiver, and then coupled via RCA to my amplifier.

There is a distinct delay between my center and mains due to the processing, and my main L and R are not getting encoded surround sound, or maybe they are, but the amp is just boosting up the signal?

I contacted Onkyo forums, but there wasn't alot of help, so I am coming to you guys, my questions are 1: am I hooking up my amplifier correctly? 2: is there a work around to prevent the delay? I really, really, like the way my mains sound while being pushed by my amp, the highs are higher, and mids and lows are amazing. I really hope someone can help, because I don't like to waste money, and atm I feel I have wasted alot of money.

Very Respectfully,

Odessa_man

 

[markw]

I don't see where your receiver has preamp outputs to drive an external amp for the purposes you intend.

How do you have the amp connected? If you're using the zone 2 outputs, there may well be timing problem.

 

[Odessa_Man]

I have RCA red and whites coming out of my uverse box to my receiver's analog in cab/sat inputs, with the zone 2 enabled source setting "cab/sat" and RCAs coming out of zone 2 out (red and white) to my amplifier in red and white.

 

[markw]

Your receiver doesn't have the preamp outputs you need.

Your zone 2 only sends out a stereo signal, not the two channels of a 5.1 signal that were derived via digital processing. Different animals.

You need "real" preamp outputs to do what you are trying to do.

 

[Odessa_Man]

(looks sheepishly around) Oh...
can you make me a recommendation of product(s) to look into? And...have I wasted my money in the wrong equipment?

 

[markw]

You need a receiver with preamp outputs. That amp will keep until you get one.

 

[Odessa_Man]

markw,

thank you for your time in helping me, but I am still a little confused, I am not trying to waste your time, but may I get a little more information from you?

I was looking at the marantz AV7701, it has "unbalanced pre out" is that what I am looking for? If "yes" will that signal be surround encoded?

Or am I looking for something else like some rack component pre amp piece of equipment?

The problem with Home theater is, once you hear a good system, mediocrity just won't cut it anymore.

 

[markw]

As long as you are learning and applying a little thought and initiative of your own, you're not wasting my time. And, from the way this is going, it seems you're picking up on what I'm throwing down.

Yes, that will work. Note that it has "unbalanced pre outs" for all channels. You'll want to use the ones for the front right and left to feed your external amp.

Now that you know what to look for, you should be able to look around and find others that will have these, nut they are generally found in the mid/upper line models. Sometimes, the spec sheets will list these as something like 7.1 analog outputs or some such verbiage.

 

[herbu]

Odessa_Man,
In my experience, if you do what Mark suggests you will have no delay problem.

If you get an AVR w/ 7 channel pre-outs, you don't have to run everything thru the pre-outs and separate amp. My AVR, (Denon X4000), has both pre-outs and speaker outputs for 7 channels. But my amp is only a 5 channel amp. I run the L/C/R and Surround L/R from the pre-outs thru the amp. I run the Rear Surrounds directly from the AVR Speaker Outputs to the speakers. Works fine.

A lot of people with 5.1 or 7.1 run only their L/C/R thru an amp. A lot of people for whom stereo music is their passion, run only their L/R thru an amp. In other words, if all your signals reach the AVR at the same time, (like HDMI input), you can mix and match which outputs go thru a separate amp without issue.

Additionally, many AVRs have a delay feature that lets you make sure voices match up with the picture on your TV. I have not had to use it. However, I have noticed that Zone 2 is noticeably behind Zone 1. So I would not suggest trying to combine the zones in the same room.

 

[Odessa_Man]

Mark and Herbu,

Thank you, so here is what I am thinking I am going to do: Buy a Marantz NR1506 5.2 channel receiver(I have 2 subs), run the preamp outs to my Onkyo M-5010 to power my mains, and...buy another amp for my center.

My concern is this: the preamp out to onkyo in, then run another set out to new amp in, do you think there will be any delays?

Lastly...in your guy's opinion, I don't have a 7.1 or 9.1 system, I am really okay with my 5.1, I can buy the 1506 no problem, I have that budgeted into my misc. spending, or should I save up and get the marantz SR7008. Because honestly from all my research I have been doing the 1506 fits all my needs, its a respected brand, and I already have an amp. I am disgusted with Onkyo atm. I am so let down, from the zone 2 issue. I re-watched the product video and at the very end, quietly, the demo-rep says, zone 2 is only broadcast in analog, end of video.

I noticed that Mark runs NAD stuff, but I can't really justify a $2500 receiver yet. I am still really new and trying to get learned up. So I am more into higher end entry level, but better than best buy phase of my audiophile experience. I have tuition to pay for my kid Is there a budget priced components that you would suggest?

 

[markw]

Thank you, so here is what I am thinking I am going to do: Buy a Marantz NR1506 5.2 channel receiver(I have 2 subs), run the preamp outs to my Onkyo M-5010 to power my mains, and...buy another amp for my center.

Not a problem. Here's a copy of that unit's owners manual

http://m.us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/NR1506U_ENG_WEB_UG_v00.pdf

You'll see around pages 28 - 31 or so that you can do exactly what you want. It's bonafide

My concern is this: the preamp out to onkyo in, then run another set out to new amp in, do you think there will be any delays?

Nope. No delays. Like I said, unlike Ulysses Everett McGill, it's bonafide.

Lastly...in your guy's opinion, I don't have a 7.1 or 9.1 system, I am really okay with my 5.1, I can buy the 1506 no problem, I have that budgeted into my misc. spending, or should I save up and get the marantz SR7008. Because honestly from all my research I have been doing the 1506 fits all my needs, its a respected brand, and I already have an amp.

That's hard to say. If you think you'll ever want to go beyond 5.x, then yes, go for the 1506 but 5.1 can be quite satisfying and 7.1 requires a bit of room behind your listening position and some (like myself) find that a bit of a problem.

I am disgusted with Onkyo atm. I am so let down, from the zone 2 issue. I re-watched the product video and at the very end, quietly, the demo-rep says, zone 2 is only broadcast in analog, end of video.

Most receivers operate like that. You can't get too mad at Onkyo. to allow digital in zone 2 would require the receiver contain another DAC.

I noticed that Mark runs NAD stuff, but I can't really justify a $2500 receiver yet. I am still really new and trying to get learned up. So I am more into higher end entry level, but better than best buy phase of my audiophile experience. I have tuition to pay for my kid Is there a budget priced components that you would suggest?

That NAD setup is two channel only and is pushing 15 - 20 years old now. Now, did you notice my HT system is a Denon 2802, which I bought on closeout because the 2803 just came out?

 

[herbu]

Nope. No delays. Like I said, unlike Ulysses Everett McGill, it's bonafide.

And FYI, you can get Dapper Dan here: http://www.amazon.com/Dapper-Dan-Pomade-Strong-100ml/dp/B00O5ITQQW

 

[Odessa_Man]

Markw and Herbu,

This is my latest update that I have coming: I bought a marantz NR1506 5.2 preamp, and a marantz MM7705 5 channel amplifier. If its worth doing its worth doing excessively, I know you guys are way ahead of me gear wise, but I found the best deals I could, on gear that fitted my needs. I want simple, strong, and reliable. And for the money the marantz did all of those things. I should be getting everything next week. But you guys really forced me to do alot of research, and I have to say that stupid hurts (onkyo...) and I have paid the stupid tax. I should have came to the forums first, versus listening to a salesman. so thank you guys.

My next question is: what is the best way to get wires from my amp to surround speakers? Currently I am using the rocket fish wireless, but if I have the amp, and I have the channels, I want to push my speakers. But I don't think there is a better solution than running 50ft of speaker cable through my attic. Not looking forward to that.

 

[markw]

Congratulations. I hope you enjoy the heck out of your system. It's a good one.

Now, the bad news: There ain't no substitute for running those pesky wires. Using Rocketfish, your amp channels are wasted since everything goes through the widdle Rocketfish amp, which can't hold a candle to a "real" amplifier.

But, it'll be worth it.

 

[KEW]

Markw and Herbu,

This is my latest update that I have coming: I bought a marantz NR1506 5.2 preamp, and a marantz MM7705 5 channel amplifier. If its worth doing its worth doing excessively, I know you guys are way ahead of me gear wise, but I found the best deals I could, on gear that fitted my needs. I want simple, strong, and reliable. And for the money the marantz did all of those things. I should be getting everything next week. But you guys really forced me to do alot of research, and I have to say that stupid hurts (onkyo...) and I have paid the stupid tax. I should have came to the forums first, versus listening to a salesman. so thank you guys.

My next question is: what is the best way to get wires from my amp to surround speakers? Currently I am using the rocket fish wireless, but if I have the amp, and I have the channels, I want to push my speakers. But I don't think there is a better solution than running 50ft of speaker cable through my attic. Not looking forward to that.

I think that won't work like you think. The NR-1506 is an AVR, not a preamp.
Here is the back panel of the NR-1506 (click on image to enlarge). It only has pre-outs for the front L & R (and subs). You will not be able to use the 5 chanels of the amp you have ordered.

You can instead, buy a two channel amp and use the NR-1506 to drive the center and surrounds, or get an AVR with 5 channel pre-outs. There are probably less expensive models, but here is the Denon AVR-3312CI as an example of what you are looking for (it has 7 channel pre-outs just to left of speaker terminals):

 

[markw]

I think that won't work like you think. The NR-1506 is an AVR, not a preamp.
Here is the back panel of the NR-1506 (click on image to enlarge). It only has pre-outs for the front L & R (and subs). You will not be able to use the 5 chanels of the amp you have ordered.

Good point. That first receiver did have front R/L (only) preamp outs and that was stuck in my mind. I didn't catch that the external amp went from two channels to five.

What you said was 100% correct.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Markw and Herbu,

This is my latest update that I have coming: I bought a marantz NR1506 5.2 preamp, and a marantz MM7705 5 channel amplifier. If its worth doing its worth doing excessively, I know you guys are way ahead of me gear wise, but I found the best deals I could, on gear that fitted my needs. I want simple, strong, and reliable. And for the money the marantz did all of those things. I should be getting everything next week. But you guys really forced me to do alot of research, and I have to say that stupid hurts (onkyo...) and I have paid the stupid tax. I should have came to the forums first, versus listening to a salesman. so thank you guys.

My next question is: what is the best way to get wires from my amp to surround speakers? Currently I am using the rocket fish wireless, but if I have the amp, and I have the channels, I want to push my speakers. But I don't think there is a better solution than running 50ft of speaker cable through my attic. Not looking forward to that.

Hope you can send back the NR1506. The only reason Im injecting myself into this conversation (Im a complete newbie) is because I've recently wanted to do what you are wanting to do. That is, gain some more power through a power amp. And, as is your problem, I too have an AVR (Pioneer vsx 522k) that doesn't have the required pre-outs. So long story short, I want a new AVR, and then I'll look to buy an amp later. For what its worth, one of the guys from the forums here (PENG) suggested I get my hands on the Denon AVR-X3100W. This avr has all the necessary pre-outs you'll need, and its only $400.00 at accessories4less.com as a refurb.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3100w/denon-avr-x3100w-7.2-receiver-wi-fi/bluetooth/airplay/1.html

If you want a new one, its only a hundred dollars more.
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3100W-Bluetooth-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00KONGJOO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441966929&sr=8-1&keywords=x3100w

 

[herbu]

I think that won't work like you think. The NR-1506 is an AVR, not a preamp.
Here is the back panel of the NR-1506 (click on image to enlarge). It only has pre-outs for the front L & R (and subs). You will not be able to use the 5 chanels of the amp you have ordered.

You can instead, buy a two channel amp and use the NR-1506 to drive the center and surrounds, or get an AVR with 5 channel pre-outs. There are probably less expensive models, but here is the Denon AVR-3312CI as an example of what you are looking for (it has 7 channel pre-outs just to left of speaker terminals):

KEW, you're exactly right.
My suggestion is for the OP to start w/ a good and strong AVR, like the Denon 3312CI, X4000, or Marantz 7008. (I should have taken the time to investigate his choices and check for compatibility. Didn't think it was necessary.)

Odessa_Man, the answer to your question, "should I save up and get the marantz SR7008", is Yes... or some other comparable AVR w/ preouts and power. Enjoy the heck out of it, and add any amps at your leisure and convenience.

And BTW, Mark is right again. No substitute for wires. If the attic is difficult, how 'bout the basement or crawl space? I simply drilled holes in the floor right next to the baseboard, wherever I needed wires. Then ran them through the basement.

I will say that Mrs Herbu is having a little trouble getting used to the occasional snake that comes up through the holes, but I think it's kinda neat to watch the cats play with them... especially the kittens. Cats usually live about 15 years, so we don't get to have a new kitten often. We're going to the shelter this afternoon to pick one up. The last snake was a copperhead.

 

[Odessa_Man]

OMG!!! I just dropped some more hard earned cash into another failed attempt at what I want, dang. I do have to say that I am EXTREMELY happy with my NR1506 though, I am still waiting on my amp, who knew that 50 watts from a good product will out shine 125 watts of a sub par product. I might be able to return my AVR for the NR7008. I bought it from a company called Orion AV out of Miami FL. They seemed pretty customer service savy.

 

[Ty Wayne]

OMG!!! I just dropped some more hard earned cash into another failed attempt at what I want, dang. I do have to say that I am EXTREMELY happy with my NR1506 though, I am still waiting on my amp, who knew that 50 watts from a good product will out shine 125 watts of a sub par product. I might be able to return my AVR for the NR7008. I bought it from a company called Orion AV out of Miami FL. They seemed pretty customer service savy.

I'm sure you can send it back. If not, keep it since you are happy with it. Use the amp for jus the L,R and if and when you want, get another avr with plenty of pre outs. I'll tell you one thing I'm learning, is patience! Taking the time to think it over and read and come here for advice before I go spending money. The people here at these forums have been a godsend for me!