Really a difference?

[The Dali]

Just throwing this out for discussion. Most of you are much more involved in A/V matters than I so i'll ask your opinion.

I had a friend who was extremely knowledgable about high-end audio-video equipment and he would talk about Theta this and McIntosh that and all this equipment that was $thousands$ of dollars per unit. Separate CD transports and DAC components...

Now, I understand that for some this is a hobby and with hobbies there are no proce tags, but in realistic terms does it matter once you hit a certain threshold? I mean, if you have good, well made equipment does it matter?

For instance, would anyone really be able to tell the difference between a $500 CD player and $3000 worth of CD transport/DAC components? I'm not talking about sub $200 entry-level equipment. I'm talking about solid, fairly expensive (by normal standards) equipment versus insanely expensive boutigque equipment. Just curious as to everyone's thoughts on the subject...

 

[zumbo]

For instance, would anyone really be able to tell the difference between a $500 CD player and $3000 worth of CD transport/DAC components? I'm not talking about sub $200 entry-level equipment. I'm talking about solid, fairly expensive (by normal standards) equipment versus insanely expensive boutigque equipment.

NOPE.

But you feel better running it.

Is a BMW 325 that much better than a Honda Accord? NOPE.

Do you get a better feeling driving it? YEP.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

NOPE.

But you feel better running it.

Is a BMW 325 that much better than a Honda Accord? NOPE.

Do you get a better feeling driving it? YEP.

Both well put and correct.

There is zero audible difference between a competently designed entry-level CD player or amplifier an a megabuck unit. (This is not an opinion: it has been proven many times in double-blind tests.)

Speakers do make a difference (and it can be a big one), but even there the curve of diminishing returns becomes virtually flat above a certain level.

The illusion that expensive CD players can sound better is a holdover from the analog days, when there really was a difference. (The difference between a good TT/cartridge and a cheap one is quite clearly audible.)

 

[Midcow2]

Is is Better? YES Can you humanly tell? ears:NO, prestige:YES

NOPE.

But you feel better running it.

Is a BMW 325 that much better than a Honda Accord? NOPE.

Do you get a better feeling driving it? YEP.

That depends! A 325 is better than an Honda Accord. It has more Bells and Whistles and yes BMW is an "Ultimate Driving Machine". What are the downsides? A BMW costs a lot, lot more to maintain or to fix anything that goes wrong and is less reliable. I had a 1998 M3 and it was expensive, drove very nice until I had a major wreck caused by an ID 10 T person. My wife didn't like it because after the 4 years free maintenance everything was extremey expensive and the electrical system was so-so. But very nice stereo : HK and very advanced diagnostics and technical. Oh yes, now a drive a 6-speed Honda Accord that on paper is about the same performance as the M3 was and is much more reliable and much less expensive to maintain. Doe it handle as well? NO WAY!

So now getting back to HT. Yes, McIntosh has always been my dream High End. Will I ever buy one, PROBABLY NOT! There is a point of diminishing returns and the ultimate HT equipment exceeds my financial comfort limits. I am very vell satistfied with Marantz, Def Tech and SVS. I think when you go from a 0.08% THD to a 0.005% THD you are going way beyond the human ability to distinguish or discern and it becomes merely a matter of material possesion bragging rights

So some of the bells and whistles can be enjoyes , but mainly the very high end owners enjoy prestige!

 

[fmw]

Think of high end audio as the equivalent of watch collecting but with a difference. Watch collectors understand that the high end watches don't keep time better than an ordinary watch. They are fascinated with the fit and finish, the details and the prices. Same with high end audio. High end audio doesn't have anything to do with listening to music. It has to do with equipment collecting.

The problem with it is that the high devotees (I was one myself once) think they are achieving better sound quality because of it. At least the watch collectors don't have that problem.

The major exception to what I said, of course, is loudspeakers. Some of the high end loudspeaker systems really are terrific sounding despite being overpriced. I think what I said can be applied to electronics pretty fairly, however.

 

[zumbo]

That depends! A 325 is better than an Honda Accord. It has more Bells and Whistles and yes BMW is an "Ultimate Driving Machine". What are the downsides? A BMW costs a lot, lot more to maintain or to fix anything that goes wrong and is less reliable. I had a 1998 M3 and it was expensive, drove very nice until I had a major wreck caused by an ID 10 T person. My wife didn't like it because after the 4 years free maintenance everything was extremey expensive and the electrical system was so-so. But very nice stereo : HK and very advanced diagnostics and technical. Oh yes,

now a drive a 6-speed Honda Accord that on paper is about the same performance as the M3 was and is much more reliable and much less expensive to maintain. Doe it handle as well? NO WAY!

So you said what I said with more words, and in the form of debating what I said.

Is a BMW 325 that much better than a Honda Accord? NOPE.

Do you get a better feeling driving it? YEP.

 

[KLR]

Thanks for confirming what I always think as I read the ads in Home Theater and Stereophile. And, after an SPL meter and the Rivas CD test record showed me the peaks and valleys of the sound that reaches my ears, combined with what an audiologist showed me about my hearing and learning that most peoples' ears are multi db away from flat, I can't help laughing at the pristine specification charts that the reviewers and the advertisers present.

What really seems weird is when a reviewer runs the automatic room calibration system and reports that he thinks that the result if just about right but a boost of 1 db is needed at 4000 hz to make it perfect. He could probably get a variation of 2 or 3 db just by moving his head a few inches, and an audiology chart would probably show that his hearing at 4k hz is multi db away from flat. Any reader of the reviewer's article might like to see an audiology graph of the reviewer's hearing before relying on his recommendation. The sad truth is that most people old enough to have acquired the wealth to buy the high end stuff probably have lost a good part of their high frequency hearing. Maybe that's why the manufacturers have gone into the high end subwoofer game.

But I agree, there is some personal satisfaction from knowing that the imposing specs of the expensive equipment probably indicates superior engineering and manufacturing quality control that will give reliable performance far beyond the time it will be kept until it is replaced with something "better". And I well recall the pleasure I got in days gone by when my new Shure V15 replaced an ADC-1 cartridge which was 1/2 db flatter than it's predecessor, and I knew I heard the difference.

I suspect that the placebo effect experienced in blind medical tests also exists in the audio industry.

 

[The Dali]

I agree with all the statements here. In fact, once I've found something in the "acceptable" range for equipment the only factor that would make me spend more $$$ is if the item was manufactured in the USA or Canada.

 

[Midcow2]

You missed my point

So you said what I said with more words, and in the form of debating what I said.

Is a BMW 325 that much better than a Honda Accord? NOPE.

Do you get a better feeling driving it? YEP.

The keys words are "that much better" Do you measure it by "cost-effectiveness" and "relability" if so, then the Honda Accord is better. It you measure by "handling", "drivaiblity" and "prestige" then the BMW is better.

The BMW is better, Just like the McIntosh is better. Is is worth it to most people? Probably not

Would I buy another BMW knowing its downsides? I considered a 335 but decided the $45K cost wasn't worth it. So probably not, because right now my key criteria is "relability" By the same token I would never ever buy another Ford; I wonce had a 1990 SHO and it was an outstanding car for the first two years until Ford's unrelability took over. And in relaity Ford probalby isn't "That Much Worse", but they will never grace my driveway again!

Would I take a McIntosh over a Marantz , Yamaha, Denon or Pioneer, ABSOLUTELY YES. There is no risk, except a little cash outlay! I thought about spending x5 but decided a SR8002 had high level enough features to satisfy me.

I guess you have got to have owned a BMW to understand. Okay, Zumbo may I kind of do agree with you Now I have a S2000 for the handling and drivability thrill with RELIABILITY. I guess I am an early-inovator that likes the new cool toys!

Later, or as we used to say "Be Cool" "Make Love Not War"

MidCow2 "I like the little better things such as an Executive 7-day Alarm clock http://www.vat19.com/dvds/neverlate-7-day-alarm-clock-executive.cfm?adid=gbase now that is COOL


P.S. - I guess it doen't really matter when the new socialism model is implemented we will all have Emerson and Jwin AVRs and Pyle and Hi-Fi speakers and drive used Fiats and Opels. Because they aren't "That Much Better" or "That Much Worse" But hey , no car payments, no mortagage payments, no food or credit card bills, no hard work or long hours. ---- Everyone is equal

P.S.S. -Last of all PEACE TO ALL .. I especially Like the Thanksgiving thread; i am thankful for this Audioholics forum and the ability to discuss audio form diffeferent persepctives, experiinces and viewpoints. But my opinion is no meant to upset anyone so iIsay again PEACE ESPECIALLY TO THOSE OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND THOUGHTS!

 

[Midcow2]

Everything will be moving to China and India

I agree with all the statements here. In fact, once I've found something in the "acceptable" range for equipment the only factor that would make me spend more $$$ is if the item was manufactured in the USA or Canada.

If the bottom up economics model that was proposed as a campaign promised is actually implemented, then most of the current major business entities will be moving out of the U.S. Jobs and business are created from wealth at the top and if you penalize those industries in the US they will relocate and the key relocation areas are China, India, Japan and Abu Dabi.

P.S.- Marantz is now manufactured in China!

 

[jamie2112]

Nope there is NO audible difference. I have a $2500 player and a Denon DVD/CD that I bought here for 30 bucks and I A/B 'd them and I couldn't tell any difference. In fact the Denon has a slightly crisper picture so price means exactly SQUAT...like its been said it is the collecting and bragging rights that drive most HI END buyers. And 90% of them wouldn't know good sound if Good Sound walked up to them and introduced itself Hi I am Good Sound...HuH.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Nope there is NO audible difference. I have a $2500 player and a Denon DVD/CD that I bought here for 30 bucks and I A/B 'd them and I couldn't tell any difference. In fact the Denon has a slightly crisper picture so price means exactly SQUAT...like its been said it is the collecting and bragging rights that drive most HI END buyers. And 90% of them wouldn't know good sound if Good Sound walked up to them and introduced itself Hi I am Good Sound...HuH.

Bragging rights is kind of big with this hobby.

I bought the DVD-5910CI just because I wanted to say that I have a $3800 SACD/DVD-A player.

I bought the DVD-3800BDCI just because I wanted to say I have a $2000 blu-ray player.

And I bought the AVR-5308CI just because I wanted to say I have a $5500 receiver.

And last but not least I bought my speakers because, as ParadigmDawg knows and envy, I wanted to say I have better speakers than he does.

 

[zumbo]

And last but not least I bought my speakers because, as ParadigmDawg knows and envy, I wanted to say I have better speakers than he does.

Best chuckle I have had in days! I love it.

 

[jamie2112]

He he he .........

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm not talking about sub $200 entry-level equipment. ...

Well, The $ensible Sound, or rather one of the contributing authors a few years ago conducted a DBT test between an $80 RCA carousel Cd player and ones costing $1000s. Could not audibly differentiate them

 

[geedee]

I understand all that's been said, but have a little anecdote.

About, ooh, 10 to 12 years ago I was working with someone who had a part time business selling very high end stuff from his home in Rotterdam.

At the time, I had a Meridian set up (can't remember the numbers! The pre was the one where you could add new modules by just pushing them together... great idea, the power was a massive grey block, and the CD was the first they made, based on a Phillips), which was quite expensive, but not insanely so!

He let me listen to a demo set up. I can't for the life of me remember what was on demo... the names Sumo and Krell ring bells. The speakers were massive electrostatic panels, either Acoustats or Martin Logans (or maybe Quads??)... forgotten. All I knew was that I couldn't afford the set up.

He banged some music on ( a female choral piece) and my jaw must have hit the floor. It was just astounding. She could have been stood right next to me.

I could hardly bare to leave. I felt like a little kid that was hearing music for the first time. I sat through the whole demo with a massive grin!

Whether calibration equipment would have recorded any detectable differences between his set up and mine is unknown. Probably a little.

But for pure enjoyment, I would have swapped any day! And I'm not sure that can be measured.

 

[fmw]

I suspect that the placebo effect experienced in blind medical tests also exists in the audio industry.

No doubt about that. Understand that audio magazines aren't in the business of helping you enjoy better audio. They are in the business of selling magazines. People don't want to read that hi fi electronics don't have a sound. They'd rather read the nonsense these reviewers spew out. It is human nature. Just ignore it. Understand it for what it is.

 

[fmw]

But for pure enjoyment, I would have swapped any day! And I'm not sure that can be measured.

You can thank the room acoustics and speakers for that. If you were to stick "ordinary" electronic components in the system to replace the Krell et al, it would have sounded the same.

 

[fmw]

If the bottom up economics model that was proposed as a campaign promised is actually implemented, then most of the current major business entities will be moving out of the U.S. Jobs and business are created from wealth at the top and if you penalize those industries in the US they will relocate and the key relocation areas are China, India, Japan and Abu Dabi.

P.S.- Marantz is now manufactured in China!

Our government is nationalizing businesses left and right, heralding the end of the private enterprise system in America, I suppose. Perhaps communist China will become the beacon of free enterprise for the future.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Best chuckle I have had in days! I love it.

He he he .........

Well, you know I have to kick him while he's not looking or else he might refute with something clever like he normally does.

The human mind is so powerful - the power of suggestion and illusion. I mean David Copperfield did make people believe that he made the Statue of Liberty disappear. So to make the human mind believe that a $5,000 CD player sounds better than a $500 CD player is such an easy task.

But, hey, if you can afford it, that's cool. I wouldn't mind having a friend who owns a million dollar system. I would not envy him. I would just think it's cool and I would just love to listen to his system.