Projector Image Problems

Discussion in 'Projectors & Screens' started by fuzz092888, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    So I just got my first projector and I'm getting a little bit of an image issue. I've got these wavy lines running through the image. I'm currently running a monoprice redmere HDMI cable and have tried a different monoprice HDMI. I've also tried two different power conditioners on two different circuits.

    Here's what it looks like:
    [​IMG]
  2. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

    jostenmeat
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    Is your PJ under warranty? Regardless, what does mftr say? Model number?

    You're running HDMI cables directly from source, bypassing receiver? You've done this with more than one source (bluray vs HDTV etc)?

    Sorry, that sucks.
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  3. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    Nah, no warranty. Epson says it's either a setting or the optical lens/main board. Not especially helpful.

    Epson 8500UB

    No, HDMI from the receiver to the PJ, but I have tried different sources. I've also tried it with no sources and just the PJ on with the pattern screen. Wavy lines never go away.
  4. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

    jostenmeat
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    Eesh. Yeah, no source means the issue is in the PJ. It won't matter, but next time you do play with it, maybe unplug the HDMI completely (if you didn't already), and/or try the alternate HDMI input. Or even the component or other input.

    Settings? Far fetched, but hm. Here are some menu screenshots just for whoever to look, in this review:
    Epson Home Cinema 8500UB Projector - Physical Tour

    The manual:
    Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 8500 UB, Documents & Manuals - Technical Support - Epson America, Inc.

    My dumb azz guess is also the main board, which normally means it's done for simply due to how much they seem to cost, at least on a certain TV or two I've heard about.

    While I wait for a possibly pending BMX participation, one enthusiast thinks this weird coloring issue in these pics might be a bad polarizer, due to an experience with an older PJ of a different brand. No striping, but redish/greenish intrusions it seems to me as with your pic (on my so not calibrated computer monitor).
    Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR

    Bad or misaligned panels seem to result in solid color pushes from random borders or something. Your issue is obviously not a dust blob which is one of the more common issues with LCD.

    My guess is the board if something is for sure *permanently wrong*. I wonder if there is some sort of hard reset one can do on a PJ or something, wait a while, try again. Was there a particular movie that you put on when this happened? When I first played Avatar 2D original BD back around whenever it was released, I had a weird color issue happen across most or the entire pic, and then the next time or was it a couple of attempts later, I tried the system, it was all good. No hard reset I think, maybe some unplugging replugging, but it's just weird that it happened once, never before, and never again. I was wondering if it was my HDMI board in the Onkyo, or if some strange FW or lack thereof was going on, or even just a bad disc (I've had that happen, total bummer when it's like an opening night with full house, Inglorious Basterds, and a gift Harold/Kumar 2 I think it was has a bad DTSMA track which they never set a recall for AFAIK, anyway I digress big time).
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  5. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    I'll be sure to give those a try. Heck I'll try anything to avoid sending it off or getting a quote to fix it. My problem isn't going anywhere, digress away :D
  6. BMXTRIX Audioholic Spartan

    BMXTRIX
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    Try lifting the ground. It sounds like you have power which is messing with things. I JUST ran into a very serious issue with a LCD which I knew was fine, and this solved everything. In residential, this shouldn't really cause you any problems, but a good surge supressor at the outlet may alleviate this issue completely (if lifting the ground works) and allow you keep your ground in place. First try this cheap solution...

    [​IMG]
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  7. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    Just tried one of those and nothing seemed to change. Just out of curiosity, could it be the screen? The screen is an Elite Spectrum series acoustically transparent screen, Model: ELECTRIC100H-A1080P2
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  8. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    I would never think that moiré would be that* bad, but try projecting it on to a piece of white paper, sheet, anything else. Maybe suspend paper on black border with painter's tape for a moment, as an off the cuff idea.
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  9. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

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    It was kind of hard to see, but it didn't appear as bad with the screen up. Still not perfect though, but hard to make out. Could it be that the screen is making some PJ funkiness worse I wonder?
  10. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    Good question. I suppose so? On my Seymour weave, up close on brighter/whiter, I can make out the diagonal weave pretty well, but that's because I have the screen "tilted" diagonally for anti-moire effects (not necessary with LCOS and this particular screen, but just in case, for the future, etc). I don't have color issues like you do, or at least what I perceive to be showing up as "color issues" in your pics.

    What does "still not perfect" mean? Still that red/green diagonal, or what exactly? Take pics? (Mostly to show BMX, not so much for me.)

    If you do go about taking pics, maybe try the paper thing still. It is flatter than a wall, which is very not flat. Maybe it's unnecessary and a waste of your time, I'll let you be the judge. Edit: yeah probably a waste of time, even if a wall isn't flat, it's still randomly uneven, not with the diagonal pattern repeated symmetrically like a screen.

    edit #2: Hey BMX, regarding his question, could this be messed up convergence, with a mega whopper helping of moiré on top?
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  11. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

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    The first three images are with the screen down. The rest are with the screen up. Some of them are with the image against the wall, some are from a couple pieces of paper I taped to the TV.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  12. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    So what do you think, fuzz? How do you think it looks without the screen? Great? If not, what then? Obviously, the screen is unacceptable in this situation.

    From over here, w/o screen, the pattern almost looks like an extremely tight perpendicular (north/south) weave. I'm guessing it's just some effect from seeing it on the other end of a computer maybe, and I imagine it probably has a lot to do with resolving the individual pixels from a closer distance.

    From over here at a glance, I do not see any awful color issues. Do you? I do see what looks like a tuft of fog or smoke right above the red cap/bottle in the penultimate photo.

    Does Elite or the store you bought from accept returns? I'd ask Seymour for a sample, and while I did not, I'd advise you to spend the extra for the larger size sample over the smaller free one. You seem to be the wood worker now? Well you can build one for not very much at all. Some straight inert wood from a good lumber store, glue, staple gun I guess. Some velvet to do it right.
  13. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    Had an idea. Unfortunately my idea leads me to believe that it is in fact the projector. I was screwing around with things and I thought I'd give projecting my computer screen a try. I was using google, so a mostly white screen, and I thought what the heck let me see what this looks like this when I retract the screen, since it gets worse with a lighter background. When I raised the screen, the wall behind the TV looks fine as far as I can tell, but the image that was projected onto the TV screen has the same issue as when the screen is down. I have no idea what to make of it. Thoughts?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  14. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    HMRZ! The only thing that immediately comes to mind as a guess, is that it's just another moiré pattern, this time the interference is created by some repeated pattern on the computer screen ???

    Because look, if it doesn't do this at all with the white paper, nor with the white wall, it must be so, right?

    edit: the Wiki definition of moiré: an interference pattern created, for example, when two grids are overlaid at an angle, or when they have slightly different mesh sizes.

    Your PJ definitely throws up a grid, what is it, 1080x1920 or whatever, LCD tech also has the lowest fill ratio (which can cause screen door effect), overlay that on whatever grid the computer screen has, and voilà . . . ?

    I just realized that is my post up your monitor, lol. I also find your clock very amusing! lol
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
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  15. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

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    The wall is light blue :p

    Yea, I hooked it back up to the Oppo and threw in a movie and watched a little bit with the screen up and projecting onto the TV like it was when I took that picture and everything looked pretty darn clear. It just may be the screen after all. I have e-mails out to the place I bought it from and to elite. If either gets back to me and says it is the screen I'll either return it or maybe it's defective (?) and I'll get it replaced under warranty.
  16. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    Yes, I feel strongly that moiré is the main issue. It's not just the screen technically speaking, it's in combination with the display as you need both for the interference pattern. Now if the weave is at a diagonal, and the more the better AFAIK, that is a good thing and it should be if it's a good design. You see I just ran a search for moiré at the AVS Elite screen thread, and there are at least 25 hits, pretty much always with the AT screens, and one guy seems to be implying that the weave is not tilted (older design? issue addressed since?). Which pretty much means bad news when coupled with LCD PJ. An LCOS projector has the highest fill ratio, I mean you could tell me it's 99.99% and I would believe you, and so you don't really have this issue with AT weaves AFAIK. What I'm saying is: Would you consider that this screen to be defective if my PJ worked fine on it, but yours didn't? Or IOW, maybe what I really mean is that . . . if I were you I might not play the defective card with them so much, rather than, "aw man I'm really bummed about this, can you please have mercy and throw me a bone".

    Another option play to consider with your vendor as a compromise (depending on how it all goes, the price delta, and other factors) could be to possibly trade-in-and-upgrade (pending your further research), their 4K material. Hey if anything for them, they get even more of your business. I have GOT to think that moiré is a non issue with 4K material. You could ask for a sample if available to know for sure. It's possible that the cost is just not worth it, but it's worth knowing about I guess. You can also ask Seymour for a sample as well, the free small one, just to know. Remember, diagonal tilt it though.

    Something that I came across when reading about the moiré effect in the Elite thread, is that you might try zooming way out (small) where the grid gets small enough so to speak, that interference is a non issue. Of course it will suck not to use all of the real estate you paid for, but it's something to tinker with and learn. If feasible, you might pull your projector farther away to help with these experiments.
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  17. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    Good points. I didn't so much play the "defective screen" card, but asked both elite and the vendor what they thought of the issue. Hopefully that's equivalent to the "have mercy on me" card you were talking about :D

    Moving the PJ isn't possible, it's against the back wall, but I can move the screen back. While not ideal, it's doable with a little work. The bad news is, that I don't think it's going to help with this particular screen. I pushed the screen back nearly to the wall, which isn't that much further back, and it didn't seem to help. I'm thinking about swapping screens, but the issue is all in price. The Seymour screens are wayyy out of my price range. $1600+ for what I'm looking for. I'm also looking at the Visual Apex screens since they got a good review from AH and are closer to my price range. Still above, but I can at least make that work, especially with the 15% off discount.

    I've looked at the vendors other offerings and the only one I would really consider an upgrade is a da lite screen, but I'm not entirely sure it would be an upgrade and for $200 more I can get a similarly sized tab tensioned model from visual apex.

    I did ask Seymour for a sample, but I think they've pretty much priced me out of their market. I have tried zooming out, but the image is so small (relatively speaking) that for the cost of the PJ and the screen, I could've just bought a new TV that was about that size.

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  18. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    What are the requirements for the screen; must this be AT absolutely? It appears to need to be a pulldown, absolutely, therefore a tab tensioned? This screen is tab tensioned?

    Ok, I look at post #11, the fourth pic . . . ok, I see that it must be pulldown now . . . but you COULD do a solid screen, that simply ends right above the center speaker? (I don't know the size of your Panny, therefore I don't know if this resultant size would also end up with you saying, "I could just have got a bigger TV" . . .

    DaLite doesn't make a weave, they'll microperf their existing fabrics, but now you have a double whammy: still the moiré, but now also with audio comb filtering unless you can put the speakers waaaaay behind, which of course you can't.

    I don't know how often you use that display (if for even this forum as well, all computer usage, then yeah better keep it if only due to bulb costs!!), but otherwise I guess this possibly could turn out to be "choose one display over the other".

    Some people go DIY with smoothing the actual wall, but BMX might reluctantly say it's cool and all but probably not worth the effort given how cheap an okay solid screen can be had for these days. He used to think Focupix as being a very good value back when, but don't know how much things have changed. There are other methods of DIY as well to check out. Just mentioning this stuff for the heck of it I guess.
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  19. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    I can work around AT so it's not a necessity, but pull down preferably electric and preferably tensioned. So the Da Lite sounds like a terrible choice.

    I'm loath to get rid of the panny plasma (46") because I have it on nearly all the time whenever I'm home so the bulbs would start to add up pretty quickly if I switched to PJ only. I like the background noise and since the place is so small I use the main system for constant music or TV/movies. Plus the PJ doesn't look nearly as good in bright light, which the majority of viewing is done in. I really only got the PJ for a couple times a month, guests, Superbowl, etc. Although it's not looking good for that last one.

    Altogether I paid right around $1200 for the screen and PJ which would have netted me a 55-70" TV depending on brand and type which is what I end up with when zooming to the point of making the lines disappear.

    Given a dedicated room I'd go DIY in a heartbeat, but that won't be happening anytime soon (the dedicated room that is). Even if I move sometime in the next couple years I still won't get a dedicated room so the screen has to be able to go somewhere.

    I'll probably get the Seymour sample and love it, then hate it for being so expensive. I'll probably jump on the VA screen and cross my fingers that it works, assuming I can send this one back. I'd just like to get the Seymour sample to settle it once and for all, for my own peace of mind, that it is in fact the screen.

    Now to hurry up and wait :rolleyes: :D

  20. jostenmeat Audioholic Spartan

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    I better understand the details of your predicament now. Knowing it's a 46" and simply eyeballing it and using a tv size calculator, it seems to me that getting the solid screen to stop at the center speaker also nets the "size of a bigger TV", maybe ballpark 65". If I bought a flat panel, my fav for the money would definitely be that size as a plasma, but I admit that $1200 seems pretty optimistic for sure.

    It's not so much DaLites that are a bad choice here, it's microperfs in general, including those from high end boutique Stewart. Right now, I think Seymour is the only good weave that I know of. There are the 4K versions however from both Elite and SE Enlightor 4K (which Seymour either owns and/or runs or distributes).

    But- I have a new reservation, that comes to mind when speaking of 4K, because I'm guessing that you are pretty close in distance to the screen/tv. You will probably see plenty of texture with the non 4K certified Seymour (even though it can handle 4K! It's future proofed!) at the distance that you're probably sitting at. Which means solid screen, which means the other compromise of smaller setup once again.

    Right now, my instinct is small screen (darn, shoulda got a bigger TV), or in fact try to return screen, sell PJ, and in fact get the bigger TV. Or save up for a 4K AT screen to do it REALLY right (you need to be closer than several ft to notice the texture, however it will have less pop/gain than the XD, but perhaps not a big issue at the moderate size it may end up being).

    Sorry to break the above thoughts to you.
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