Preamp selections 2 channel

ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Last few days of research before I make the call on a new two channel preamp. Budget is up to 1500. Although with a little more time I could add about 500.. In any case.... Last time I asked it had to have sub controls. Well as long as it has two preouts I am OK. One for the amp. One for the sub. I think I have read so much that it has confused me more than ever. So, I am asking....
What are the best choice for a preamp? Need good volume control. XLR would be great. I may have missed a bunch of brands that I don't know about...
I am really curious about the Nad preamp.

Parasound P5.. Front runner
Emotiva XSP-1...... Owned... Great Price. Sound????
Nad.....Always wanted their stuff
Onkyo...Great reference stuff
Primaluna... May need a little more cash
Wyred 4 sound... Question the quality. Based on reviews

Need more suggestions too.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Parasound
NAD
Cambridge Audio
Vincent Audio
Bryston
Music Fidelity
Peachtree
NuForce
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Pick up a used krell hts for 600/700 and use it in bypass mode. Then you have input for sacd or go with the avr choices given in the other thread.:D
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Pick up a used krell hts for 600/700 and use it in bypass mode. Then you have input for sacd or go with the avr choices given in the other thread.:D
Can I truly get the best sound using an AVR Pre... Yes I know about room correct Andrew.... And most of the time ACR Pre's a very expensive.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Can I truly get the best sound using an AVR Pre... Yes I know about room correct Andrew.... And most of the time ACR Pre's a very expensive.
Only time will tell. :D

I can tell you about my experience. But I think everyone will probably just need to travel the road for himself. :D

I think a pre-pro like Marantz might be a great idea, especially at a great price.

Who knows? It may not be the answer for me, but perhaps that Parasound Halo preamp is the answer for you.

No more EMO for you, though. You've overdosed on EMO. And no Onkyo. :D

So I think either Parasound Halo preamp or Marantz pre-pro.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Can I truly get the best sound using an AVR Pre... Yes I know about room correct Andrew.... And most of the time ACR Pre's a very expensive.
Of course you can and it gives you a lot more options.

There is so much nonsense floating around about this. Any 50 cent op amp will have better performance than just about anything else in the system. So the quality of an AVR is its analog circuitry and the processor. You actually have to work hard to make a preamp sound bad. However in analog mode, head room can be an issue. I have two Marantz pre/pros. I have only bench tested one, but it has loads of head room.

These offer balanced connections if you want them. However balanced inputs are all about interference rejection, not about improved sound quality. The xlr balanced connection was developed years ago in professional circles to deal with noise in long cable runs in electrically noisy buildings. The signal positive and negative connections float above ground. The idea is that the signal cables pick up identical interference. So if the input is balanced like in a matched differential J-FET arrangement you get excellent common mode rejection. There is a common misconception that balanced arrangements help with ground loops. They do not.

So if you do use balanced circuits the most important place to have common mode rejection is at the input.

There is a highly erroneous view on these forums that balanced circuits are inherently better than unbalanced ones. The only place this is really true, is with common mode rejection HF signal loss in long cable runs and above all in the output stage of power amps. Only balanced power output stages are capable of high power. The only output stages that are not balanced are the single ended triodes. However, no matter what the enthusiast with highly active imaginations say, they are lousy low powered amplifiers.

Now the big area where balanced circuits are not superior is degradation over time. All balanced circuits are isomers of one another essentially, that is to say they most be perfect mirror images. If they are not then the sine wave is not symmetrical and a potent source of distortion.

So this means that all the components have to be hand matched. This is why they cost so much. So you get your shiny new amp balanced through out, that you pawned your wife's diamond ring for, and it's audio nirvana, and measures fine too. But we all know what happens over the years. Those resistors caps and solid state devices age and wander from their original performance. The problem is there is no guarantee our mirror images will age the same and they usually won't. So imperceptibly to the user distortion levels rise over the years bit by bit.

So that is why in my view you don't want anymore active balanced circuits in the audio chain then dictated by application.

The only circuits I know that solve this problem are the feed forward circuits of Peter Walker and Nelson Pass. These amps, have a very good low powered class A amps, that feed an error signal to the Class A/B biased dumpers, which can be biased heavily to B and run cool. Performance is class A. However, there is another benefit, they correct out of balance conditions in the output stage. So confident was Peter Walker in this, that he never bothered matching his output transistors. He personally demonstrated to me and amp that worked perfectly with the output transistors mismatched by 30%.

I follow the DIY community and in the last 12 months or so, there has been a resurgence of interest in this approach, with new circuits appearing on the forums. So may be we will start seeing more commercial offerings of this approach other then from just Quad.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
anyone ever hear of these guys... I hadn't till today. Seems interesting.

CIAUDIO : PLC•1 MKII - Remote Passive Line Controller
Yes, I have. I can tell you that passive preamps are another of the audiophools terrible ideas. These lunatics just never run out of stupid ideas. The reason that it is stupid, is that load impedance goes all over the map, with things like volume change settings. It sounds simple and it is. That's the problem, too simple. Just about any active preamp will have a better performance than one of those.

I can tell from your posts that you are in urgent need of desensitization from the audiophools. They have unlimited ways of parting you from your money and at the same time seriously downgrading your audio performance and persuading you, you are living in audio nirvana.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
That's why I am here.. trying to educate myself so I don't make poor decisions.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
O
There is a highly erroneous view on these forums that balanced circuits are inherently better than unbalanced ones. The only place this is really true, is with common mode rejection HF signal loss in long cable runs and above all in the output stage of power amps. Only balanced power output stages are capable of high power. The only output stages that are not balanced are the single ended triodes. However, no matter what the enthusiast with highly active imaginations say, they are lousy low powered amplifiers.

Now the big area where balanced circuits are not superior is degradation over time. All balanced circuits are isomers of one another essentially, that is to say they most be perfect mirror images. If they are not then the sine wave is not symmetrical and a potent source of distortion.

So this means that all the components have to be hand matched. This is why they cost so much. So you get your shiny new amp balanced through out, that you pawned your wife's diamond ring for, and it's audio nirvana, and measures fine too. But we all know what happens over the years. Those resistors caps and solid state devices age and wander from their original performance. The problem is there is no guarantee our mirror images will age the same and they usually won't. So imperceptibly to the user distortion levels rise over the years bit by bit.

So that is why in my view you don't want anymore active balanced circuits in the audio chain then dictated by application.
Very interesting post. It may not go over well :p :)

In general, I assumed that amps may degrade over time but do not know how to evaluate them.
For example, when should your amplifier be recapped?

On side note, the new ATI Signature amps quote this in their feature list:

As in Kessler’s previous top-of-the-line designs, these amplifiers are fully balanced, differential amps, but unlike his earlier balanced designs which were essentially balanced bridged amplifiers, the 6000 series uses only a single input stage with dual-differential output stages. The reason: the advantages of balanced designs are retained and noise is reduced by 50%.</SPAN></SPAN>
Is this less balanced than the ATI3000 series?


- Rich
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Very interesting post. It may not go over well :p :)

In general, I assumed that amps may degrade over time but do not know how to evaluate them.
For example, when should your amplifier be recapped?


- Rich
His post will be well received because we know he's talking from a place of knowledge and experience. He makes some great points. XLR won't solve ground loop. It never has. Rane has a killer engineering note on ground loop.

He's also right on balanced designs. They aren't necessary and they do double up the parts count. There are fine sounding designs of single or fully mirrored designs out there.

Your amp should be serviced when it starts showing BIAS issues or out of spec DC offset or other ailments if you take it in for a periodic service check up. But since awesome sounding amps are 1> A commodity 2> Will generally last 12-15 and longer (Crown DC300A I purchased, built in 1977, is still in spec with minimal service) years before really starting to float from spec. That's me being pessimistic on the 12-15. People in the know will just spend another $500-600 and be done with it for another decade+
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
If you're going with a stand alone amp, I say the Parasound (for bass management). Few of the two-channel-centric pre-amps have that.

Or the HK990, about which I've read numerous reports of the sub $1K "refurbed" ones being brand spankin' new, so they may be selling them as such to not conflict w/ retailers similar to ClassicAudioParts and ATI amps, but that's just a guess. The HK990 has all you could want in a two channel integrated amp: gobs of power; bass management and room correction; digital and analog connectivity, including a decent phono pre.

Or just use an AVR. Nothing wrong with that, although one with the requisite power and/or pre-outs tend to cost a bit more.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That's why I am here.. trying to educate myself so I don't make poor decisions.
I do not have a clear idea of what you are trying to do. Is this an audio only system, or will you use it for watching TV as well? I can tell you that the only audio only systems I own are in my cars. Now I'm an audio enthusiasts from way back, over 60 years now. I never thought I would be such and advocate of picture with sound. I can tell you I'm totally sold. Audio is much better with a picture. Careful studies have recently be done at London University using novel analytical techniques to see in AV world how much of the enjoyment of the experience comes from the A and the V. It turns out it is 60% V and 40% A. From my experience since BD and now high quality streaming, I'm not surprised. I have never enjoyed my music more, now that I can get a picture with it.

So when at all possible good audio systems should also be able to deliver a good picture. That means you need to pick pre/processors that seamlessly integrate video and audio. All I can tell you is that the audio performance of my pre/pro is exemplary, and with the ever present problems of speakers, no one would ever be able to detect a unit with a marginally improved spec. And only a marginal improvement would be possible. So I would encourage you to get a Marantz pre/pro. The Denon is out of your price range. In any event, the Marantz units have an audio performance beyond what is really required of a pre amp.

I guess there is an old adage, that says, "it is better to be nearly correct than precisely wrong".
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Very interesting post. It may not go over well :p :)

In general, I assumed that amps may degrade over time but do not know how to evaluate them.
For example, when should your amplifier be recapped?

On side note, the new ATI Signature amps quote this in their feature list:



Is this less balanced than the ATI3000 series?


- Rich
Regarding recapping, it depends on many factors such as how often you use the amp, the temperature rating of the caps (an important one), the voltage rating, ambient temperature/ventilation considerations etc. I would think that for most people you shouldn't have to worry about that for at least 5 to 7 years. I don't use them enough and I listen at low volume/low temperature so I am not going to worry about recapping for 15 years. I have amps that are over 20 and 30 years old, still sound great but I will recap them soon regardless.

Those big caps in your A51 are probably 85 deg C 100 V rated. Would have been nice if they are 105 deg C rated but 85 is pretty good already.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Is this less balanced than the ATI3000 series?
The marketing announcement is so full of BS it is difficult to tell, but I think it uses a balanced input stage decoupled from the output stages, and nested differential output stages, meaning it's like McIntosh "quad-differential". If my interpretation is correct, then the 6000 series uses a potentially better balancing strategy, and focuses the added costs of differential circuitry where it theoretically counts, in the output stage. The 6000 isn't more or less balanced, if I'm correct, it's just a different strategy (that might achieve a better result, or not).
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Regarding recapping, it depends on many factors such as how often you use the amp, the temperature rating of the caps (an important one), the voltage rating, ambient temperature/ventilation considerations etc. I would think that for most people you shouldn't have to worry about that for at least 5 to 7 years. I don't use them enough and I listen at low volume/low temperature so I am not going to worry about recapping for 15 years. I have amps that are over 20 and 30 years old, still sound great but I will recap them soon regardless.

Those big caps in your A51 are probably 85 deg C 100 V rated. Would have been nice if they are 105 deg C rated but 85 is pretty good already.
So is this the genesis of the 5 year warranty? :p :)

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So is this the genesis of the 5 year warranty? :p :)

- Rich
You can keep it cool to extend their life, rule of thumb is double the specified 3000 hours for every 10 deg C lower operating temperature. Also keep in mind even after they reached their projected shelf/load life, the caps are still good, just that they may no longer operate within their published specs. Problem is, now that you know it, you are going to hear the deterioration after they reached their projected life. That does not apply to people like me.:D Unfortunately, unlike bias, you can't adjust them to bring them back to spec, you have to replace them with new ones.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
You can keep it cool to extend their life, rule of thumb is double the specified 3000 hours for every 10 deg C lower operating temperature. Also keep in mind even after they reached their projected shelf/load life, the caps are still good, just that they may no longer operate within their specified specs. Problem is, now that you know it, you are going to hear the deterioration after they reached their projected life. That does not apply to people like me.:D Unfortunately, unlike bias, you can't adjust them to bring them back to spec, you have to replace them with new ones.
I adjust my bias daily :p
Measurements at the heat sinks during the spirited listening sessions were 150F (65 C). Most of the time the amp is about 100F (37C), idling. TV and movies are not taxing.

I am still toying with the idea of replacing my 5 channel with a 3 and 2 so that I have a backup in the event of completely avoidable mishap ;)

- Rich
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You raise some good points. How to to evaluate performance over time and when to intervene, by problem or rote? I don't have any evidence of what is best, so all I can tell you is what I do.

First of all changing components on printed circuit boards is not a trivial matter, with many opportunities for miss adventure. There is a lot to be said for letting "what is good be good." As you know, when reasonable I like to run equipment over long periods of time. I do this by avoiding junk, and purchasing with an eye to longevity. This used to be much easier, as circuits and service manuals were readily available.

I obviously investigate if there is any sign of malfunction whatever. This is an absolute criteria for a trip to the test bench. I do check performance of crucial components on the bench every five years or so. I have to say though, that if there are no signs of malfunction I leave well enough alone. In general I don't replace components on an arbitrary schedule. The one exception is main power supply smoothing caps from certain manufacturers. Certain manufacturers are known to have these caps deteriorate with age. For instance the old ITT and STC caps in vintage Quad amps have been a particular problem. This leads to another issue with vintage preservation and restoration. Old caps are bigger than new caps. This requires modification in addition to replacement. I use exclusively Panasonic caps as replacements, and have for many years. I have not had to replace one.

I do not recommend replacing smaller caps on circuit boards unless there is a reason to do so. I have good soldering and desoldering equipment and consider myself reasonably skillful. However I will admit to creating the odd difficult circuit board repair replacing components. If you go replacing components on circuit boards willynilly, every few years, then you will almost certainly shorten the life of the equipment.

I have stated before that people serious about this hobby, should leave room in their budgets for test equipment and learn how to use it. There is plenty of good value used equipment at affordable prices on eBay. I think the basics are a high impedance amplifies multi meter, a Variac, a signal generator, a two channel O-Scope and a distortion analyzer. Those items will pay for themselves in the long run.

On your last point, obviously that new ATI amp is less balanced than the old one, which was basically two bridged amps. However that is almost certainly to the good.

Finally a word about noise. A 50% reduction is 3 db. Now if you can't hear noise in you chair at a volume setting at concert pitch there is no problem. If you can't hear the noise you can't improve it, can you? Now noise of all units in the chain is additive. I have my sources, the pre pro, a bunch of electronic crossovers, buffer amps and 14 amp channels. Even on the Minnesota Orchestras Grammy winning SACD of Sibelius symphonies 1 & 4 under Osmo Vanska I don't here noise at concert level. Osmo by the way is legendary for huge dynamics. He gets the quietest pianissimos and the loudest fortes. I hear no intrusive background, so there is no point in me trying to lower the nose floor further. When it comes to balanced circuits in an amp, balancing the input helps with common mode rejection, however in domestic situations this is rarely an issue. The reason the output stage is balanced has nothing to do with noise, but power output.

Now that designer, claims a 50% (3db) improvement in noise by only balancing input and output. Well you would expect that wouldn't you? You have pretty much halved the components in the voltage gain stages where most of the noise is generated, so you should have a 3db reduction in noise. I rest my case!
 
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