Pre/Pro, AVR questions

[1911]

I am certainly not an expert, nor am I a newbie, but I have some questions regarding audio components as I plan to upgrade my entire system within the next 9 months. I am in need of unbiased advice from the experts/audiophiles on this forum. The problem I am running into is that whenever I feel that I have made a decision, I end up doing more research – which inevitably results in more confusion than ever.

Last year AcuDefTechGuy advised me that a Denon X4000 would be a great choice. While I don’t doubt his advice, and I am sure the X4000 would do everything I needed – and a great deal more – I feel that I may want something other than offered by the mainstream A/V companies.

My intended use is ~60% home theater/40%music. I do not currently use any streaming services such as Netflicks, but I have done so in the past & I do own a Roku. I listen to SiriusXM in the car and I sometimes use Pandora. I do not feel that these features are absolutely necessary in an AVR or Pre/Pro since I have other devices that can provide these features. I am also not sure I need the myriad of features AVRs such as the Denon X4000 offers, since I will likely never use them.

To that end, I am currently considering an Arcam AVR-450, which I believe I can get used for around $1,900.00. I have also been considering a pre/pro, but it seems that the majority of the pre/pros I have seen, lack the numerous HDMI connections that an AVR offers – why is this? As far as an amplifier is concerned, AcuDefTechGuy advised me that the ATI 1805 would be an excellent choice and I have seen these sell used for as little as $450.00 – and by all accounts the ATI would be an excellent amplifier. If I wanted to invest in separates, what pre/pro amp combos should I be considering in the $2K - $2.5K range used? I looked at the Arcam FMJ AV8, but again, there is a complete lack of HDMI connections. I also looked at the Outlaw 975… What about Adcom?

My last system has lasted me 20+ years and is still going strong, but I am badly in need of an upgrade. I am considering a 5.1 or 5.2 system and as it stands now, I am considering Focal 836Ws, Revel F208s (or F206s), PSB Synchronicity One(s) or RBH SX-6300s + center and surrounds. I will probably go with a SVS PB2000 for the sub.

Although I consider myself somewhat of an audiophile, at this point, my budget is limited (~6K all in). I want the best sound/reliability/longevity that my budget will allow. I want to be “blown away” by my new system. Would I see any real advantages if I chose separates or should I just go the AVR route?

Any suggestions/advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

High_Noon

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The truth is the economies of scale allow high precision and multi-faction instruments to be manufactured at relatively small prices. Taking features out, despite what common sense tells you - does in not in fact improve anything. Only thing it does - it raises the device price and typically also makes it measure inferiorly.

Now By all means - you can go ahead and spend $3-4k in electronics - it's your money, but you came here for our opinion, and overwhelmingly forum regulars will tell you - get to get results - you should put 70-90% into speakers.
All your mentioned speakers brands are not bad, but I honestly don't think that pb2000 can catch up with them.

Now ADTG will probably suggest RBH more heavily, and honestly besides he's biased, he also had/have top of the line speakers for extended periods in his home. He should know what his talking about.

 

[elwaylite]

Im a huge fan of an amp. Now preamp vs AVR as preamp, I do not have much of an opinion. I went from an AVR with dual sub eq and Audyssey XT32 and I am not sure I "hear" a difference that comes into me spending $2000 on the preamp

I do like that I can now use balanced connections, the preamp runs very cool, and it has all the connections and video options as an AVR.

If I was on a budget I'd get something like the X4000 and an Outlaw 7500/7700 series. If you wait a week or two you can usually grab a slightly used 7500 off ebay for $1000 to $1100, and then grab a refurb X4000 off accessories4less.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outlaw-Model-7500-Balanced-5-Channel-Audiophile-Power-Amplifier-/331593976569?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d348a8af9

Just some ideas.

 

[1911]

Now By all means - you can go ahead and spend $3-4k in electronics - it's your money, but you came here for our opinion, and overwhelmingly forum regulars will tell you - get to get results - you should put 70-90% into speakers.

Now ADTG will probably suggest RBH more heavily, and honestly besides he's biased, he also had/have top of the line speakers for extended periods in his home. He should know what his talking about.

BoredSysAdmin: Thanks for the reply. Yes, I understand that the bulk of my budget should go towards speakers and yes, ADTG did lean towards RBH & I take his rec. seriously. My speaker purchase will be dictated by the best deal I can find - new or used - for the speakers I mentioned. What sub would you recommend if the PB200 can't keep up?

Of course, I'd prefer not to spend a huge amount on components. I was thinking that I would allocate around 2K at most for the AVR or pre/pro / amp. I did not realize that sacrificing features in an AVR would lead to possibly inferior sound in a pre/pro - if I am understanding you correctly. That said, the Denon X4000 would certainly be a great choice. Any concern with going with an Arcam AVR-450 over the Denon?

 

[1911]

Im a huge fan of an amp. Now preamp vs AVR as preamp, I do not have much of an opinion. I went from an AVR with dual sub eq and Audyssey XT32 and I am not sure I "hear" a difference that comes into me spending $2000 on the preamp

I do like that I can now use balanced connections, the preamp runs very cool, and it has all the connections and video options as an AVR.

If I was on a budget I'd get something like the X4000 and an Outlaw 7500/7700 series. If you wait a week or two you can usually grab a slightly used 7500 off ebay for $1000 to $1100, and then grab a refurb X4000 off accessories4less.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outlaw-Model-7500-Balanced-5-Channel-Audiophile-Power-Amplifier-/331593976569?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d348a8af9

Just some ideas.

elwaylite: What is the advantage of pairing an amp with an AVR if the AVR has somewhere around 120w/ch? And why the Outlaw 7500/7700 over the ATI? I did read somewhere that Outlaw amps were manufactured by ATI, but I am not sure this is true...

 

[elwaylite]

The 7500/7700 is an ATI 2000 series. ATI builds amps for a lot of folks and as far as the 7500 and 7700 go, hard to beat those amps for the quality and power they put out, plus they are usually cheaper than ATI models. They are beasts.

Need for power is driven by several things like speaker sensitivity, how loud you actually listen, your distance from the speakers, your room. Lets face it, if you dont listen loudly at all and cross speakers around 80 or 100hz, you dont need much headroom. If you like listening at reference level, 2 channel music, etc..., more headroom the better.

IMO, an quality separate amp really opens speakers up, more so than an AVR generally does. But amp vs avr always makes for a heated discussion, so I just tell folks to try it out for themselves. If you buy new from an amp company, some have a 30 day return.

 

[PENG]

That said, the Denon X4000 would certainly be a great choice. Any concern with going with an Arcam AVR-450 over the Denon?

I think the AVR-4520 is a better choice if you can get it for under $1K (it's been that low recently). The AVR-450 offers less power output and I am not sure if it uses class D amps. Class D can be excellent too but some may not be as good as the try and true class AB. Other than that, with Arcam gear you can expect to pay more for less or pay much more for the same.

I have tried both separates and AVR and found little difference other than ended up with less money in my pocket. My next upgrade will be from separate to AVR. Oh, remember ADTG had happily used a Denon AVR-3312 to drive his hi end speakers, forgot which one.

 

[PENG]

elwaylite: What is the advantage of pairing an amp with an AVR if the AVR has somewhere around 120w/ch? And why the Outlaw 7500/7700 over the ATI? I did read somewhere that Outlaw amps were manufactured by ATI, but I am not sure this is true...

As elwaylite said, need for power is driven by several things so I will just add that if you don't have the need for 120 WPC the amp most likely won't do anything for you. If you end up with the Synchrony One and the room is medium to large size then I would recommend adding a two channel 200 to 300W Outlaw or Emotiva amp just for the L/R speakers. If you end up with a Focal 836W or their Aria line equivalent then you probably won't need an amp if your room is small to medium and you don't listen at reference level and above.

Bottom line, amps don't make bad speakers sound good but depending on your room and how loud you listen, good speakers can sound good with low cost amps or even AVRs.

 

[1911]

Thanks everyone for the advice. It sounds like the best course of action is to purchase an AVR and then pair it with a 2 ch amp, if necessary. I don't see that Outlaw has a 2 or 3 ch amp, but they do have the 2200 monoblocks. An ATI 2002 might be a good choice as well.

The reason I am concerned about purchasing a Denon AVR is due to the fact that I've had 3 Denon failures - 1 DVD, 1 Bluray, & 1 receiver failure(s). My vintage Pioneer, Marantz, Technics, Yamaha and Kenwood stuff never had any failures of any kind - I even have a 1st generation Hitachi CD from 1986 that still works! With that in mind, what is the opinion of the new Pioneer Elite AVRs such as the SC-82 and has Denon improved their reliability?

 

[PENG]

Thanks everyone for the advice. It sounds like the best course of action is to purchase an AVR and then pair it with a 2 ch amp, if necessary. I don't see that Outlaw has a 2 or 3 ch amp, but they do have the 2200 monoblocks. An ATI 2002 might be a good choice as well.

The reason I am concerned about purchasing a Denon AVR is due to the fact that I've had 3 Denon failures - 1 DVD, 1 Bluray, & 1 receiver failure(s). My vintage Pioneer, Marantz, Technics, Yamaha and Kenwood stuff never had any failures of any kind - I even have a 1st generation Hitachi CD from 1986 that still works! With that in mind, what is the opinion of the new Pioneer Elite AVRs such as the SC-82 and has Denon improved their reliability?

You are right about Outlaw not having 2 or 3 channel amp but the monoblocks. I agree the ATI2002 is a good one to have. I have had 4 Denon AVRs and 1 universal in the past. All of them are in perfect conditions including the 12 years old AVR-3805 and DVD3910.

In your case I can understand your concern about their reliability but you can go with Marantz, such as the SR7008 if you don't need Atmos and a few other latest gadgets that the 2015 models offer. I highly recommend D&M AVRs mainly because their top models typically come with Audyssey Sub EQ HT and XT32. The Audyssey DEQ feature is also a great feature to have for below reference level enjoyment.

 

[elwaylite]

I have never used them, but owners have spoken highly of the Outlaw monoblocks and you can regularly find them on ebay. There was two on there this morning for about $170 each IIRC.

 

[1911]

I have never used them, but owners have spoken highly of the Outlaw monoblocks and you can regularly find them on ebay. There was two on there this morning for about $170 each IIRC.

Thanks elwaylite, I am watching those very monoblocks on fleabay.

 

[1911]

You are right about Outlaw not having 2 or 3 channel amp but the monoblocks. I agree the ATI2002 is a good one to have. I have had 4 Denon AVRs and 1 universal in the past. All of them are in perfect conditions including the 12 years old AVR-3805 and DVD3910.

In your case I can understand your concern about their reliability but you then you can go with Marantz, such as the SR7008 if you don't need Atmos and a few other latest gadgets that the 2015 models offer. I highly recommend D&M AVRs mainly because their top models typically come with Audyssey Sub EQ HT and XT32. The Audyssey DEQ feature is also a great feature to have for below reference level enjoyment.

Thanks PENG, I will check out the Marantz SR7008. Accessories4less has them for $749.99 w/ a 3 year warranty and I have always liked Marantz. I will also keep my eye out for an ATI 2002/3.

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG, I will check out the Marantz SR7008. Accessories4less has them for $749.99 w/ a 3 year warranty and I have always liked Marantz. I will also keep my eye out for an ATI 2002/3.

That's a fantastic deal if in fact comes with a 3 year warranty, as long as the warranty is a real one, I mean like the factory one.