Please help, receiver stopped working

G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
Hello fine gentlemen,
I have an Onkyo tx-8050 Receiver with a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 Bookshelf speakers and a Mordaunt Short Alumini 101i Sub plugged in.
The setup was working fine before I went away for three weeks and when I returned, I turned on some music (at a perfectly normal volume) and after 2 minutes the receiver just cut out and shut down.
Now when I try to turn it on it flashes up the message "Check SP Wire" before shutting down immediately, it is only on for a second or two before turning off.
I assumed this was a short, so I took all the cables out, but it still doesn't turn on, I have re-cut the cables and tried with them but again there was no luck.
The reciever and speakers are brand new, only the sub is second hand. Although I am not sure if that is relevant.
Any tips to fix it or check what the problem is would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Removing the speaker wires was the first thing that I'd suggest, and you did that. I suggest doing that again, and make sure to inspect the terminals closely for any small strands of wire that might be bridging the gap between two terminals.

A question for you - was anyone using the equipment while you were away?
 
G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
I have tried it a few times with no wires in. No luck. If I plug the wires into A 1 and 2 I get the check sp wire error and if I plug them into the B1 and 2 I get no error it just shuts off in the same way. I have done some googling and it sounds like a blown output amp or something like that?
My question is should that happen to a basically new (used for a week then left for 3 weeks) reciever blow when not being played at anywhere near a stressful volume?
Also, no it was only me that has used it and it has been completely off for the 3 weeks. I have checked the terminals and can see no signs of any loose wire, but I use banana plugs anyway so there shouldn't be any in the first place.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
My question is should that happen to a basically new (used for a week then left for 3 weeks) reciever blow when not being played at anywhere near a stressful volume?
Well, you certainly shouldn't be responsible for paying to have it fixed. There are workmanship issues that occur with electronics that can lead to failure early on in life (such as bad solder connections that will stress and crack after being cycled a few times). Manufacturers will weigh the cost of screening all hardware before shipping against the cost of repairing the few that will fail if they don't screen. Hence, warranties.

Are you still within the return window? If so, I'd say return it and get a new one. I haven't heard good things about the response time of Onkyo warranty service.
 
G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
Unfortunately not, because I struggled to get my speakers for ages so I had the receiver sat there for ages. I will just have to contact the company I bought it from. I won't wait for repair times, I should be able to get them to send a new one out as this is in perfect condition apart from the fact that it doesn't work for whatever reason. I don't feel like I should suffer because they sold me faulty goods. I will have to wait until monday, which means no music or sound without headphones for the duration of the weekend.
Thanks for your help.
While i'm here, are the receiver and speakers are compatible? I did some research but I'm not really all that confident with this stuff.
If it's not I can look for a more compatible one. More Watts or Less Watts, whichever is required.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Any speaker is compatible with any receiver as long as the ohm ratings match up. At 6 ohms you should be good with whatever receiver you get. The onkyo you purchased is a fairly low level one, and onkyo are known to not be so great with their lower level AVRs. If your price range is still the same I suggest you look for a yamaha or Denon in that price range, or step up to the Marantz 5006, which IMO is one of the next best options.

Marantz SR5006 7.1-Channel 3D Ready Home Theater Receiver, In Stock at OneCall.com

If you want a brand new one you can get one for probably $640-660 if you call them and ask them if they'll do better. If you look on ebay you should easily be able to get one for under 600. Great receivers, better build quality than those of similar price from other brands, and they last.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Unfortunately not, because I struggled to get my speakers for ages so I had the receiver sat there for ages. I will just have to contact the company I bought it from. I won't wait for repair times, I should be able to get them to send a new one out as this is in perfect condition apart from the fact that it doesn't work for whatever reason. I don't feel like I should suffer because they sold me faulty goods. I will have to wait until monday, which means no music or sound without headphones for the duration of the weekend.
Thanks for your help.
While i'm here, are the receiver and speakers are compatible? I did some research but I'm not really all that confident with this stuff.
If it's not I can look for a more compatible one. More Watts or Less Watts, whichever is required.
Unfortunately you have wound up on the rocks of physics, because of what the specs don't tell you.

We have covered this ground often, in that a speaker manufacturer's claim of what the speaker's impedance is, is of no guide to the suitability of associated equipment what ever.

This is a classic case of nominal impedance meaning nothing.

Here is the impedance curves and the phase angles between voltage and current with frequency, of your speakers.



Now as you can see the impedance dips to 3.6 ohms at 190 Hz.

Now the speakers are below six ohms in a good deal of the frequency range where the bulk of the power is consumed.

Now it gets worse, when we consider the phase angles, which are in negative territory at times. For instance the graph shows an impedance of 5 ohms at 110 Hz, but when you do the calculations to factor in the phase angle of -45 degrees, the amplifier sees an impedance of 3.5 ohms.

As the reviewer point out these speakers require four ohm capable amplification.

Now the sensitivity is quoted as 86 db 2.83 volts 1 meter. However because of the impedance and phase angles the speakers are actually 3 db less sensitive than they appear.

This is a frequent problem.

These speakers are well reviewed as giving good performance per dollar, and they have a very good bass response for a bookshelf. It is this latter that is largely responsible for the difficult load.

The problem is that these are budget speakers, but not suitable for budget receivers. A lot of this is due to the fact that HT is big in the UK, two channel stereo music systems still rule. British integrated amps also still rule. While these devices are not usually very high powered, they are reliable and stable under just about all loads.

Because your receiver tells you there is a speaker error where there is not, I can guarantee that the short circuit is in the power transistors of at least one channel.

Unfortunately I suspect that you will encounter this problem again with a replacement receiver.

Onkyo are far from the most robust, especially at the lower end of their price range.

You need to find a four ohm capable receiver, or get one with pre outs and use external amplification.

The real problem is that amplifiers belong in the speakers, NOT the receiver. All cars audio systems work like this in newer offerings.

The car industry have poured millions and millions of R & D dollars into this, especially Audi. My year old Chevy, has DSP crossover and amps for every frequency range. This is the stock system. It sounds wonderful, and far better than most domestic audio systems, even expensive ones.

The long term answer, to your frequently encountered problem, is keeping the signal digital right from the microphone capsules to loudspeaker drivers, with the new AES standard optical interconnects, so we end ground loop problems for ever.

The big money is now determined that technology, now largely in cars, is brought to home audio. The big money is now on it and determined to bring it about. The sooner the better.

The current way of doing things is now way out of date. Going forward promises a quantum leap in performance per dollar, reliability and and end to compatibility problems.
 
G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
Woah, that's a lot of information for a newbie. I understand some of it. But I also get the jist of what you are saying.
I will do my best to fight with the company and get a better reciever instead of the replacement they will give me for this piece of junk.
Can you recommend any good 4ohm recievers that will not cost me an arm and a leg?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Woah, that's a lot of information for a newbie. I understand some of it. But I also get the jist of what you are saying.
I will do my best to fight with the company and get a better reciever instead of the replacement they will give me for this piece of junk.
Can you recommend any good 4ohm recievers that will not cost me an arm and a leg?
This is a problem.

Receivers don't seem to have THX cert anymore. That used to tell you that the receiver would not blow up into a four ohm load if it did not handle it well.

From hear say Marantz and HK seem to have the best reputation for driving four ohm loads. I have no idea if it is deserved or not.

I think you have two options with the load those speakers represent.

The first is to go the mid to flagship level receiver of the major manufacturers.

Your other option and probably the best option, is to get a receiver with pre outs and get an external amplifier. Your guide should be that the amp doubles its power into a four ohm load compared to 8.

I personally don't use receivers and never would, mainly for this issue, but also I have a habit of configuring systems receivers could not drive for multiple reasons.

I have a feeling that these newer receivers crammed with features are skimping on the power amps. If that is so it is backwards thinking.

For most speakers it is impossible to get the data I was able to find on yours. Normally you would have to measure this yourself.

Unfortunately your speakers present a more difficult load than usual.

I have a hunch however that if you bought a Marantz 5006 for instance you will probably be OK, but I can give no guarantee.

I can give you one good rule, avoid the low end of the receiver market from any manufacturer like the plague.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I have a 5006, drives a 4 ohm load without much of a problem. I wouldn't recommend trying to drive a difficult 4 ohm load and then try to blast it, but you should be ok with the speakers you have and a Marantz.

You have a choice though. The 5005 has a full set of pre-outs and is

MARANTZ SR5005 100w X 7ch 3-D Home Theater Surround Receiver | Accessories4less

The 5006 you can get used for under $600 maybe even $500, but doesn't have a full set of pre-outs, only a front L/R pre outs.

Marantz SR5006 7.1-Channel 3D Ready Home Theater Receiver, In Stock at OneCall.com

You should be able to get them down to $660 or so.

Shameless plug, but my 5006 is up for sale as well, but ebay and and accessories4less has them as well for good prices.

OR

you could step up to the 6006, which gives a few minor benefits and a full set of pre-outs for ~$900.

Then again all of this is only if you want to go with the Marantz line.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Your other option and probably the best option, is to get a receiver with pre outs and get an external amplifier. Your guide should be that the amp doubles its power into a four ohm load compared to 8.
+1 for this. Furhter, if the Onkyo meets your needs and since it already has 2.1 pre-outs, get it fixed or replaced. To this add a 3ch amp (see note *) like the Emotiva XPA-3 (which just happens to be on sale) and you will not have power shorage related amp problem again.

* Thats right, 3ch amp! Why 3ch amp instead of 2ch? A good amp should last forever and so you should plan for the future. Eventually you will opt to add surround sound. In that event, the same 3ch amp can power the front stage (L, C, R). If you will keep this a strictly 2.0 or 2.1 system, it will not make sense to get the 3ch amp :).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
+1 for this. Furhter, if the Onkyo meets your needs and since it already has 2.1 pre-outs, get it fixed or replaced. To this add a 3ch amp (see note *) like the Emotiva XPA-3 (which just happens to be on sale) and you will not have power shorage related amp problem again.

* Thats right, 3ch amp! Why 3ch amp instead of 2ch? A good amp should last forever and so you should plan for the future. Eventually you will opt to add surround sound. In that event, the same 3ch amp can power the front stage (L, C, R). If you will keep this a strictly 2.0 or 2.1 system, it will not make sense to get the 3ch amp :).
2.1 will not feed a center channel amp.

I think as Fuzz suggests, he will be OK with the 5006. From what I can find, on the Net, the Marantz and HK lines seem to handle these loads the best. HK owners however don't like the set up software.

Obviously there is a cost issue here and the 5005 may be out of range, however I think that is his best option, if he can stretch to it. He can certainly add a three channel amp to that if he has to, but I doubt he will.

It really is nice to have that option though.
 
G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
As always, you guys have been more than helpful, thank you.
I will look on ebay, although I live in the UK so it is going to be more expensive.
Hopefully I can find a good Marantz SR5006, in fact I just saw a new one for £529. Probably my only option as I doubt they will refund my money. I will probably have to pay the difference which is annoyin, although hopefully this receiver will go the distance.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Well if the one you get is like mine, then you should be golden :D Best of Luck.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
As always, you guys have been more than helpful, thank you.
I will look on ebay, although I live in the UK so it is going to be more expensive.
Hopefully I can find a good Marantz SR5006, in fact I just saw a new one for £529. Probably my only option as I doubt they will refund my money. I will probably have to pay the difference which is annoyin, although hopefully this receiver will go the distance.
Do you really need a sub? Most UK rooms are small and a sub not really required for two channel. May be you should consider a British integrated like the excellent ones from Creek audio.

Your speakers are right in the sweet spot in price and have been a very good seller in the UK. I doubt most purchasers drive them with receivers however.

Your other option is to have your receiver fixed and buy a good used 2 channel amp. The UK is awash in good older two channel amps.

This amp will drive your speakers fine and probably for the rest of your life.

I have two of these now 40 years old that I have never had the top off.

You are in the right place to take advantage of the great British audio legacy, the finest the world has. An era now smashed in the rocks of international corporations.

You are very unlikely indeed to come home and find that amp blown, and they sound sweet and gorgeous.

You have more great options than we do here, for getting out of this one.
 
G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
Do you really need a sub? Most UK rooms are small and a sub not really required for two channel. May be you should consider a British integrated like the excellent ones from Creek audio.

Your speakers are right in the sweet spot in price and have been a very good seller in the UK. I doubt most purchasers drive them with receivers however.

Your other option is to have your receiver fixed and buy a good used 2 channel amp. The UK is awash in good older two channel amps.

This amp will drive your speakers fine and probably for the rest of your life.

I have two of these now 40 years old that I have never had the top off.

You are in the right place to take advantage of the great British audio legacy, the finest the world has. An era now smashed in the rocks of international corporations.

You are very unlikely indeed to come home and find that amp blown, and they sound sweet and gorgeous.

You have more great options than we do here, for getting out of this one.
Yeah, I listen to a lot of heavy dubstep and DnB, the speakers alone wouldn't produce the warmth in the bass that is necessary. Presumably having a Sub will help the receiver handle the speakers as it should reduce the amount of bass they are trying to produce?
If I was to get an amp off ebay would you suggest a price range I should be looking for? As I have no idea about audio technology or it's respective prices.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
2.1 will not feed a center channel amp.
Nope, that was more from a future proofing perspective than immediate need/use.

Thats right, 3ch amp! Why 3ch amp instead of 2ch? A good amp should last forever and so you should plan for the future. Eventually you will opt to add surround sound. In that event, the same 3ch amp can power the front stage (L, C, R). If you will keep this a strictly 2.0 or 2.1 system, it will not make sense to get the 3ch amp :).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, I listen to a lot of heavy dubstep and DnB, the speakers alone wouldn't produce the warmth in the bass that is necessary. Presumably having a Sub will help the receiver handle the speakers as it should reduce the amount of bass they are trying to produce?
If I was to get an amp off ebay would you suggest a price range I should be looking for? As I have no idea about audio technology or it's respective prices.
I hope you don't live in a semidetached or terraced house then!

I would snap that gem of a 303 up fast, that I listed.

The latter iterations of the Quad 405 II are fine, avoid the 405s unless they have been updated. The Quad 606 and 909 are fine. Used Quads will be your best bet.

Now I know your choice of music, you absolutely need an external amp for those speakers. No receiver amps at any price. Only use the preouts on a receiver, not the amps with your music taste and those speakers.

I think the Quad 303 is the most bullet proof amp ever designed.

Don't do it by price, but by brand. I would stick to Quad. Quad produced a pretty large number of amps for the UK and its estimated over 90% of their production is working. That is why I get so upset with the likes of Onkyblow.

You have quite a few 303s to choose from including from well known ethical refurbishers. There are some Quad 405 II to be had and some of their newer class AB amps. The 909 is a really good bet, but you will have to give $700 to $800 for one of those may be more. It is worth every penny though. The 606, 405 II and 909 are all Peter Walkers current dumping amps and they are brilliant. I own six of them!

If the budget will stretch go for a 606 or 909. I bet you will own it for the rest of your life.
 
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G

Goochtoucher

Audioholic Intern
I hope you don't live in a semidetached or terraced house then!
I live in a block of flats and yes my upstairs and downstairs neighbours as well as most flats on my floor hate me.
I will see if I can find any cheap Quad's then. Is there a price I shouldn't be paying more than for one? Just as a rough estimate
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I live in a block of flats and yes my upstairs and downstairs neighbours as well as most flats on my floor hate me.
I will see if I can find any cheap Quad's then. Is there a price I shouldn't be paying more than for one? Just as a rough estimate
eBay will tell you. Look at completed sales. Expect to pay more for a newly restored one.
 

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