Pioneer Andrew jones ??

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smoke68_61

Junior Audioholic
Ok so I hear a lot about these pioneer Andrew jones speakers... I have 2 klipsch reference towers that has dual 4" woofers in each tower and a klipsch reference center with dual 4" woofers also.. So do you guys think i should sale these and buy the pioneers?
 
afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
Order the Pioneers and listen to them for a week and see If you like em' If not return them. Simp0le as that, in store listening is a no-no.
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Ok so I hear a lot about these pioneer Andrew jones speakers... I have 2 klipsch reference towers that has dual 4" woofers in each tower and a klipsch reference center with dual 4" woofers also.. So do you guys think i should sale these and buy the pioneers?
I believe you can hear the Pioneers at your local Best Buy (unlike those Internet Direct products some companies try to sell). I would take a CD or two and give them a listen.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Best buy allows returns, try them out... what klipsch towers do you have 42'S? I am going to say the pioneers aren't going to have the output your refernce towers have, but will be warmer a little less forward and do fine with tv... What aspect about your klipsch speakers is making you want to switch...
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Best buy allows returns, try them out... what klipsch towers do you have 42'S? I am going to say the pioneers aren't going to have the output your refernce towers have, but will be warmer a little less forward and do fine with tv... What aspect about your klipsch speakers is making you want to switch...
Good point. Figure out what your speakers aren't giving you and get some that fix the issue. Don't just go buy a set of speakers just because there is a lot of hype. I will say that I do like mine, but they are a great deal for the money. I would like to have something better though, but I'll be building them. Eventually.
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
I recently purchased a pair of the little Pioneer SP-BS22 bookshelf speakers as part of my effort to find inexpensive speakers that I might be able to recommend to my Philharmonic Audio clients for surround or even center channel duty. The cheapest speakers I offer run $850 a pair, and might well be considered overkill as surrounds, and would be difficult to wall mount in any event. So far I've looked at the latest NHT Super Zero and the Cambridge S30, both at least twice the cost of the Pioneers. Earlier, I had also tested the larger Pioneer BS52 tower speakers simply because I was intrigued by all the publicity, and they were on sale super cheap.

I've listened to the 22's carefully, and have compared them with a number of other speakers I have around the shop, and I also measured them. Plus, I measured the individual drivers, imported all that into my design software, replicated the factory crossover, and experimented with other crossovers. So I think I know them pretty well.

Here are my conclusions: First, I paid around $80/pr, and they're silly good for that price. The woofer measures very flat, and is nicely tuned to provide strong bass output in the 75 - 80 Hz range. Pioneer sacrificed sensitivity to provide accurate bass, and that's to be applauded. The crossover is very carefully optimized using second order electrical circuits for both the woofer and tweeter. That is, to say the least, unusual and probably unique in this price range. Even the much pricier KEF Q100 only uses a cap and a coil in the crossover. The highs are very extended and, although a little elevated at the top, not really irritating. On simple program material with lots of content in the highs and midbass, these things will amaze friends and relatives.
On the minus side, they don't do nearly as well on complex material with instruments rich in harmonics in the lower treble. On orchestral music, and on brass instruments in general, they take on a murky quality that obscures detail. I noticed exactly the same quality in the B52's. In that case I thought it was the complex 2.5 woofer configuration, which I thought was muddying up the upper midrange and lower treble. But the real culprit was the tweeter. I replaced those with some cheap vifa's, redid the crossover, and liked the result much better. The 22 appears to use the same tweeter, and it leads to the same problem. There are two issues with the tweeter. First, no two seem to measure a like. I tested 3 samples of the B52, and 2 of the 22. In the case of the 22, there is a 6 dB difference in the output centered at 4.5 kHz. There were similar differences with the samples of the 52. Second, the tweeter just doesn't seem capable of producing enough clean output at its lower end. I measured harmonic distortion and found a sharp rise around 3 kHz (but such measurements are tricky to make and may not be accurate in an absolute sense). As I mentioned, I experimented with different crossovers, which my software allows me to listen to without actually building the crossovers. Other than bringing down the highs slightly, I couldn't improve on Andrew Jones' design, which appears to be optimal for these speakers. The only way to improve them would be to replace the tweeters, and then you wouldn't have $80/pr speakers. So surprise, surprise--there are trade-offs involved in selling super cheap speakers. Pioneer and Dr. Jones have provided a valuable service in providing as much quality as they have for this price, and I can certainly see why they have sold so well. For the kind of listening I do, I prefer the NHT Super Zero and Cambridge. Of course, the NHT doesn't have any bass to speak of, and the S30 has been discontinued. Finally, although I do have complete measurements for the 22, I'm not going to post them. It's just not cricket for a competitor--however remote and insignificant that competition might be--to do that. But they're quite good even ignoring the super-low price.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Dennis, if someone were looking for a bipolar surround to match with your Phil line, would you have any recommendations?

Have you ever considered a BP surround in the Phil line?

I'm guessing probably wishful thinking as not much demand, expensive, and tough to measure accurately?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Dennis, if someone were looking for a bipolar surround to match with your Phil line, would you have any recommendations?

Have you ever considered a BP surround in the Phil line?

I'm guessing probably wishful thinking as not much demand, expensive, and tough to measure accurately?
I've used these with great success as side surrounds with the Phil's, and these are the cheaper version with a smaller woofer.

There are a lot of other options out there as well, but for a bi-polar surround these are probably my favorite. To my ears they still image well along with providing the wide dispersion area.

I know Dennis has said he prefers an accurate bookshelf for a surround speaker so I doubt he would offer a bipolar design.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I prefer monopole surrounds as well, but I've heard some systems with bi/dipole surrounds that sounded good too; it just isn't my preference.
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Dennis, if someone were looking for a bipolar surround to match with your Phil line, would you have any recommendations?

Have you ever considered a BP surround in the Phil line?

I'm guessing probably wishful thinking as not much demand, expensive, and tough to measure accurately?
You pretty much guessed my response. I did do a BP for one of Jim Salk's clients, and it worked out pretty well, except there was absolutely no bass when configured for maximum effect. Fuzz has a good ear, so I'm sure the one he's recommending would work well.
 
afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
If you don't want to spend too much the budget Bi-pole Wharfedale WH-2 work fairly well and can be found on ebay now and then for $100-120. I own 2 pairs and really like them.
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
I've posted the results of my experiments with a different tweeter for the 22's here: Andrew Jones' Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers good for music?

The post includes a frequency response plot of my full-blown mod. The bottom line is good news and bad news. The good--the sound can be significantly improved for about $30, and turned into first class small monitors for about $50. The bad--you can't really try this at home unless you want to saw a little mdf (very little) and wire up crossovers.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Naturally you are on the far end of the country for me to have them shipped out for a listen :) I still might take you up on that though.
 

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