phase error during auto setup

[noobariffic]

Hello all!
I wanted to check with you experts out there. I have run into a situation during my auto checkup on my denon receiver. When I go through the setup, it tells me my front l/r are out of phase. I have checked my connections and they are all red to red and black to black. I thought I would try something as I read somewhere in reversing the red and blacks. So I reversed the connections so that red goes into black and vice versa. Now I am able to finish off the auto setup with no issues. My question is this, is this a problem? Will this damage my speakers or avr?
As a secondary test, I have an older Yamaha aver and I tried the auto setup there. In this case when all the connections are restored to the "proper" red to red and black to black, it only picks up that my front right speaker is out of phase. Running the same "trick" in reversing again allows the auto setup to go through.
Am I missing anything here or any negative affects I need to watch out for?
Thanks in advance!!

 

[Pyrrho]

It is impossible to say without more information, but it is entirely possible that the internal wiring on one of your speakers is wrong and is out of phase with what it is supposed to be.

But ignoring that as a possibility, as a general rule, there is no harm done to your speakers or amplifier by running one of them out of phase with another one. Usually, it does not sound right, but if the speaker is improperly wired internally, it may be that the receivers are giving you the right answer.

Before tearing anything apart, I would switch the right and left speakers and run the automatic setup again, and see if it says that the same speaker is out of phase with the others, or if the speaker in the right front position seems out of phase (just to be clear, you did say it was the right front that is out of phase with the rest of the speakers?). If the former, I would look inside the speaker (if it is out of warranty) to check the wiring, and if the latter, it may be that you have a strange acoustic problem in your room that makes it seem as though the sound coming from that one spot is out of phase.


By the way, it was smart of you to use a second receiver with an automatic setup to test things. That pretty well rules out it being the receiver that is the problem.

One other point of clarification: You do mean that you switched the wiring going to the one speaker only, correct?

 

[noobariffic]

pyrrho, thank you for your quick response!! Good idea on switching the left and right speakers. I will try that and report back.
As for the point of clarification, yes, I switched the wiring on the one speaker (the front right) when running from the Yamaha as it only reported back that the front right speaker was out of phase.
For the denon, I did switch both (or rather reversed) both the wires for both speakers as denon was reporting that front L/R were both out of phase.
I am slightly suspicious that my room acoustics may be throwing it off. It does make me feel much more reassured that nothing will be ruined should I reverse the black and red connections for either the avr or the speakers.
Assuming I still get these phase errors would you suggest I leave it that way or is it better to "reverse" the connection so that the auto setups do not report phase errors?
Thanks again!

 

[Pyrrho]

That is a bit different than the impression I had from the first post. So the receivers do not agree, and the Denon says both right and left are out of phase with the other speakers, and the Yamaha says that the right front is out of phase with the other speakers.

Do you have an echo in your room? Is it very acoustically "live"? If so, you might want to add carpet, curtains, just about anything to prevent sound from bouncing around your room. (Real movie theaters not only typically put carpet on the floors, but it is also often on the walls as well to prevent sound from bouncing off the walls too much.)

For the sake of how it sounds, you should try to deal with your room acoustics, if they are the cause of the problem. But as far as damage to your gear goes, it will make no difference which speakers are in phase and which are not. For that, you should pick what sounds best, which I would have guessed to be whatever the receiver selects, but the two do not agree on this. Since the receiver will likely not want to set the levels and distances with it "thinking" that the speakers are out of phase, if you cannot deal with the acoustics of the room (or otherwise correct the problem), I would go with whatever the receiver tells you so that it will (hopefully) set the levels and delays satisfactorily.

 

[noobariffic]

So I had the chance to move what was my Front Left to Right and Front Right to Left, still the same phase error. Again, once I wired black to red and red to black and re-ran, the auto setup went through.
I do have my area carpeted but do not have window dressings. You are likely right with regards to the room acoustics. I will have to tinker around that way. In the meanwhile, should I just leave the connection as how the AVR prefers them (red to black and vice versa) or just reconnect them as red to red and black to black?
Again, I want to thank you as it takes a load off my mind knowing that there will not be any damage done to the AVR or speakers.

 

[Pyrrho]

By "the same phase error," do you mean that it still says that the right front is out of phase with everything else? If so, then it is probably room acoustics that is causing your issue.

And if that is so, then I would wire them as the receiver "thinks" is correct so that it will set the delays and distances (though you should take a look at what it sets to make sure it is reasonable). You probably do not want to trust it for setting "small" versus "large," as most automatic setups seem to get that wrong for some reason. You want to set your main speakers to "small" unless they do deep bass as well as your subwoofer, which is almost never the case. And you will want the crossover frequency above the -3dB point of the lower end of the frequency response of your main speakers. For example, I have speakers rated 50-40,000 Hz +/-3dB, so I have the crossover above 50 Hz (I have mine set at 80 Hz).


If you do manage to deal with your room acoustics, I would try hooking things up correctly and rerunning the automatic setup to try to get things really right.

But, again, hooking things up out of phase will not damage the equipment. Typically, it won't sound right, but it won't damage anything.

 

[j_garcia]

The Emotiva manual for my UMC-200 said it was not uncommon for systems to interpret something incorrectly and flag one or more speakers as out of phase even when they are not and if you've verified all the connections then ignore the error. I found that after a number of calibration runs, it would randomly say they were and then weren't out of phase, so I ignored it and they sounded fine. The key there, IMO, is do they sound right as mentioned?

 

[fuzz092888]

The Emotiva manual for my UMC-200 said it was not uncommon for systems to interpret something incorrectly and flag one or more speakers as out of phase even when they are not and if you've verified all the connections then ignore the error. I found that after a number of calibration runs, it would randomly say they were and then weren't out of phase, so I ignored it and they sounded fine. The key there, IMO, is do they sound right as mentioned?

Exactly. I have the same issue with my Marantz 8801 and Audyssey. As long as it sounds right to you don't worry about it.

 

[Pyrrho]

The Emotiva manual for my UMC-200 said it was not uncommon for systems to interpret something incorrectly and flag one or more speakers as out of phase even when they are not and if you've verified all the connections then ignore the error. I found that after a number of calibration runs, it would randomly say they were and then weren't out of phase, so I ignored it and they sounded fine. The key there, IMO, is do they sound right as mentioned?

Exactly. I have the same issue with my Marantz 8801 and Audyssey. As long as it sounds right to you don't worry about it.

Interesting. No matter how many times I have run the automatic setup on my system, even switching out the receiver for a different model (though both Yamaha), I have never had an incorrect phase error.

 

[TLS Guy]

We revisit this issue periodically. It seems hard for members to understand. You have to understand loudspeakers, crossovers and phase shifts. For every order of crossover there is a 90 degree phase shift, more or less. However due to phase shifts in drivers and the acoustic response of drivers, the crossover point of a tweeter and woofer is frequently not at the same frequency electrically, even though the combined and acoustic and electrical responses are at the same frequency. This makes the phase response of crossovers a very complex issue.

The bottom line is that drivers can be and quite frequently are out of phase at crossover. This is always corrected by reversing the phase to the tweeter to avoid a null at crossover.

This was no problem until auto set ups came along. For obvious reasons, mainly due to room problems, these programs have to use higher frequencies to determine phase. So if the tweeter phase has to be electrically reversed to avoid a null at crossover, then programs like Audyssey will show an out of phase condition.

Now the answer is not to reverse the connection to the speakers like the OP has. The reason is that it is of the utmost importance that the woofers be in phase. If you reverse the connections to make Audyssey say the speakers are in phase, then the woofers are out of phase.

I have spoken to Chris Kyriakakis about this, and the right answer is to not use Audyssey under these conditions. This is a limitation of Audyssey and you can not use it and have to do a manual set up.

Because of this I think speaker manufacturers are trying to avoid this problem and I would bet some are actually spoiling the frequency response to avoid the problem.

I'm really conflicted about Audyssey, and I'm certain it should only be used for speaker volume and delay and possibly as a guide to crossover frequency. Otherwise I'm convinced it ruins good systems. It might help some weaker systems, but that is debatable.

I'm inclined to agree with Billy Woodman, founder of ATC loudspeakers, that this type of approach to equalizing sound systems is terminally flawed and should not be used to equalize systems.

So not being able to use Audyssey is no great loss and may well be a benefit.

 

[noobariffic]

Thank you Pyrrho, I have taken up your suggestion and just re-ran the auto setup with the red/black "reversed" and all has gone through. I will definitely need to experiment with acoustics to see what effect it has on the auto setup.
That said however, TLS guy makes a valid point and has me yet again second guessing myself. After running the auto setup, I always check the details that has been set. The small/large is actually set correctly, so are the distances and the phase. To be honest, I generally use the auto setup as a secondary check on the dimensions and then tweak it with manual. Where I do rely on it is the setting of the EQ.
My primary question that Pyrrho did answer is not how to get past auto setup but rather if doing the red to black "reversal" would cause any damage. Now if the correct method is just to leave the red/black as it was planned to be and ignore the auto setup's phase errors and tune manually then I am not against this. To provide further details that I did not bubble up, I have used both Audyssey and YPAO and my intention is not to debate which is better or worse but merely to highlight that both do indicate that with slight variation that there is some phase issues with my front setup whether that be both front speakers or just one. So with that being said, if the suggestion is to "reverse" the red/black connections and no longer receiving the phase error or to wire things correctly and manually tune, I am all ears. I am much less knowledgeable than all of you on the forums so I always welcome the advice and guidance.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you Pyrrho, I have taken up your suggestion and just re-ran the auto setup with the red/black "reversed" and all has gone through. I will definitely need to experiment with acoustics to see what effect it has on the auto setup.
That said however, TLS guy makes a valid point and has me yet again second guessing myself. After running the auto setup, I always check the details that has been set. The small/large is actually set correctly, so are the distances and the phase. To be honest, I generally use the auto setup as a secondary check on the dimensions and then tweak it with manual. Where I do rely on it is the setting of the EQ.
My primary question that Pyrrho did answer is not how to get past auto setup but rather if doing the red to black "reversal" would cause any damage. Now if the correct method is just to leave the red/black as it was planned to be and ignore the auto setup's phase errors and tune manually then I am not against this. To provide further details that I did not bubble up, I have used both Audyssey and YPAO and my intention is not to debate which is better or worse but merely to highlight that both do indicate that with slight variation that there is some phase issues with my front setup whether that be both front speakers or just one. So with that being said, if the suggestion is to "reverse" the red/black connections and no longer receiving the phase error or to wire things correctly and manually tune, I am all ears. I am much less knowledgeable than all of you on the forums so I always welcome the advice and guidance.

You absolutely need to wire all your speakers red to red and black to black and ignore Audyssey.

You had both right and left speakers show out of phase and the chance of having two miss wired speakers is close to zero. Your right and left speakers have a reversed wired tweeter, or if three ways a reverse wired midrange.

Ignore Audyssey, as it is paramount to have the woofers in phase, which they will not be if you reverse the connections.

 

[Swerd]

TLS's explanation of this complex issue is correct.

As j garcia and fuzz said, you should verify that all the connections between your receiver and speakers share the same polarity (red-to-red and black-to-black for all speakers), and ignore the error from Audyssey.

Audyssey is reporting as an error, what may be a strong reflection from nearby walls, ceiling or floor. This can vary widely with the speaker's locations and the listener's location. It is essential that your speaker's woofers be in phase with each other.

Did you mention what speakers you have?

 

[Trifecta]

I would like to bump this thread as I have a similar problem.

I have a new Marantz 7008 and I love it. I added Wide speakers and really liked the effect on the soundstage, so decided I should get a pair of height speakers as well. Due to limitations, I had to place the height speaker on my mantle, several feet above the front speakers but just inside them (within 8 inches). I know the height speakers ideally should be at a 45 degree angle from listening point, basically centered between the front speakers and front-wide. I was hoping to avoid mounting the speakers, but I'll do so if it's the only way to get acceptable speaker placement for proper height effect.

I re-ran Audyssey after adding the height speakers, and every time I run the calibration it tells me the left height speaker is out of phase and to check the speaker connection.

My questions:

1. Could the phase error be a result of the current speaker placement?

2. Could the error be a result of something wrong with my speaker? I just purchased it and want to ensure it's not defective.

 

[fuzz092888]

Sometimes audyssey does that. If the speaker doesn't sound off or funnny, then just tell audyssey to ignore it.

 

[j_garcia]

I would like to bump this thread as I have a similar problem.

I have a new Marantz 7008 and I love it. I added Wide speakers and really liked the effect on the soundstage, so decided I should get a pair of height speakers as well. Due to limitations, I had to place the height speaker on my mantle, several feet above the front speakers but just inside them (within 8 inches). I know the height speakers ideally should be at a 45 degree angle from listening point, basically centered between the front speakers and front-wide. I was hoping to avoid mounting the speakers, but I'll do so if it's the only way to get acceptable speaker placement for proper height effect.

I re-ran Audyssey after adding the height speakers, and every time I run the calibration it tells me the left height speaker is out of phase and to check the speaker connection.

My questions:

1. Could the phase error be a result of the current speaker placement?

2. Could the error be a result of something wrong with my speaker? I just purchased it and want to ensure it's not defective.

If you read the thread, your questions were already answered.

 

[Paul Rahn]

Same Problem with YPAO

I had the same problem with my Yamaha RX-v2500 doing a YPAO setup this weekend. In this case, it said ALL 5 of my speakers were reversed phase. I was alarmed to say the least. I tried it again with the wires reversed and it said the wiring was correct. I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling from this and I will be putting the wires back the way they are supposed to go (red to red, black to black) and running it again.

As a side note, when I run YPAO the levels seem to be correct and distances are almost spot on but the sub crossover sets really high at 180 or 200.

I was so frustrated that I bought a Marantz 5001 on ebay to use with my Carver tfm-25.

I have so many issues with my room and system that I really don't know where to begin.

Here is what I have so far:

RX-v2500
Carver tfm 25
Dahlquist DQ20 (woofers may need re-foaming, kit ordered), Currently using Paradigm Monitor 7s for FL, FR
Paradigm Mini Monitors SL, SR
Paradigm CC370
SVS PC12-NSD.

My living room is fairly large 28x15 (approx) and so far things don't sound great. I have a much lesser system in my movie room and it sounds significantly better.

HELP!

 

[fuzz092888]

So things sounded worse after running YPAO? Did you tell YPAO to ignore the phase error and go ahead anyways (is that an option?)? If you can, run YPAO, tell it to ignore the phase errors, manually change the crossovers to 80hz after you're all done and see how it sounds.

 

[TLS Guy]

I had the same problem with my Yamaha RX-v2500 doing a YPAO setup this weekend. In this case, it said ALL 5 of my speakers were reversed phase. I was alarmed to say the least. I tried it again with the wires reversed and it said the wiring was correct. I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling from this and I will be putting the wires back the way they are supposed to go (red to red, black to black) and running it again.

As a side note, when I run YPAO the levels seem to be correct and distances are almost spot on but the sub crossover sets really high at 180 or 200.

I was so frustrated that I bought a Marantz 5001 on ebay to use with my Carver tfm-25.

I have so many issues with my room and system that I really don't know where to begin.

Here is what I have so far:

RX-v2500
Carver tfm 25
Dahlquist DQ20 (woofers may need re-foaming, kit ordered), Currently using Paradigm Monitor 7s for FL, FR
Paradigm Mini Monitors SL, SR
Paradigm CC370
SVS PC12-NSD.

My living room is fairly large 28x15 (approx) and so far things don't sound great. I have a much lesser system in my movie room and it sounds significantly better.

HELP!

In the Dahlquist D20 the mids and tweeters are out of phase with the woofers. I would just ignore YPAO, it is doing its job. Your problem is with your different speakers you don't know what is in phase with what. I suspect especially with your center you will have an out of phase condition whatever you do. You must have the woofers all on the same phase, but the Dahlquist is going to be out of phase with your center in the midrange and tweeter. There is nothing you can do about that.

Also the Dahlquist has an open backed midrange. Therefore the response droops badly. Siegfried Linkwitz has shown that when you do that active electronic crossovers with Eq are required. That is why YPAO set your crossover so high.

I have heard the Dahlquist speakers and I personally regard them as a total mess and they are the major contributing factor to your confusion.