On wall surround speakers, Revel Concerta vs Paradigm Millenia lp

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Sketty55

Audiophyte
Hi all. I'm a complete newbie and have never had any high end audio before. I'm trying to get a new system before my basement gets finished in the next couple of months. This sytem is going in my main floor living room, however I understand that the wiring will be completed through my unfinished basement and up into the living room, above.

I've went to listen to a few sets that were recommended and so far I like the Paradigm Milennia lp's and the Revel concerta m8 and m10's. That being said, I haven't listened to too many others and I'm not sure I have the ear to hear any major differences (they all sound good to me!).

Can anyone provide any advice on these two sets. Preferences? Limitations? Any others in this price range I should be looking at? I'm also thinking about pairing them up with a Pioneer elite sc-61 receiver.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there! Welcome to the forum :)

I'm planning on using on-wall speakers in my home theater as well, so I've been listening to several on-wall options.

Long story short, I find most on-wall speakers to be pretty disappointing. One of my main criteria for a good surround sound system is having a perfectly seemless soundstage across the front 3 speakers. In other words, if a sound pans across the front, going from Left to Center to Right - or vice versa - I want that sound to not change at all as it travels from speaker to speaker! This is far easier said than done, since the center speaker is positioned horizontally, while the Left and Right speakers are positioned vertically (at least in most cases). That difference in layout most often means a change in the timbre of the sound as it pans from speaker to speaker, even when all three speakers are literally identical!

In fact, having three literally identical speakers is often the problem because having the tweeter flanked on either side by the mid-bass drivers alters the sound vs. having the mid-bass drivers above and below the tweeter when that exact same speaker is positioned vertically.

So while popular on-wall speakers like the Paradigm Millenium and Definitive Technology Mythos all sound pretty good when used as vertical Left and Right speakers, I've found them to be less than satisfactory when the center is placed horizontally. I want those pans across the front to be seemless and perfect, and they just aren't!

Now, the Revel M10, C10 and M8 are a different story. I actually bought some, brought them home and gave them a proper audition because I was quite impressed with them during a store demo. Ultimately, I returned them, but not because I found them disappointing! I'm simply at a stage in my home theater experience where I'm looking for an even higher level of quality than what this price point could provide. I'm basically now settled on eventually buying some $3000 EACH Focal on-wall IW 1003 Be speakers. I'm just saving up, since, obviously, they ain't cheap! :eek:

You can read my impressions of the Revel on-wall speakers in this thread here .

To be honest, I found the Revel on-walls to be the best sounding speakers in the price range. But they DO have their limitations. You most definitely need a subwoofer and you need to cross it over fairly high at the 110Hz level that Revel recommends. They also can't play extremely loud - although they do fairly well on that front considering their very small size and very light weight. The slightly altered design of the C10 center works well though. And, as I say in that post, these are definitely on-wall speakers. That's where they sound their best. Sitting them on a TV stand or a shelf of any sort does alter the sound. But if you're mounting them right on the wall (as intended), they really do sound pretty darn good!

You also have the nice option to use the Revel S12 surround speakers, which are actually some of my favorite surround speakers, period. The reason I like the S12 so much is because it gives you the option to run the speaker as a di-pole (two sides out of phase), a bi-pole (two sides in phase), a monopole (only one side firing) or a dual monopole (literally two separate speakers in one cabinet). That's the most flexible surround speaker I've come across, and it matches really nicely with the M10 and C10 on-wall front speakers. So if you prefer a more diffuse surround speaker - like I do - I can highly recommend the Revel Concerta S12. It's a fairly large speaker though - although it still mounts easily on the wall and isn't actually any thicker from front to back than the M10 or M8 speakers. But it just looks a lot bigger because it's much wider from side to side ;)

You might also want to check out this thread here where I talked with another forum member who had some similar questions.

In that thread, I mention the GoldenEar SuperSat speakers, which are in a very similar price range. Now, I found the SuperSats were really not deadly accurate at all. But they ARE quite pleasing to listen to, and I found that they work quite well in compromised placements - like inside an entertainment unit. Basically, I found the Revel on-walls to be more accurate speakers, but they have to be positioned correctly - on the wall and clear of any other surfaces. So if you just have a blank wall with a TV mounted on that blank wall and the Revel on-wall speakers mounted around that TV...that's ideal. But if you have an entertainment unit, or bookshelves or a built-in shelf unit that you're using, the GoldenEar SuperSats are definitely worth an audition, IMO. They aren't as linear and accurate all on their own, but I did find that they handle compromised placements better than most speakers. And their design makes them sound quite pleasing with less than stellar recording quality - like most modern mp3 and iTunes files ;)

The other speakers I mention are the Jamo THX on-wall speakers, which are a bit more expensive, but not a crazy amount more. These are champs if you want LOUD output.

One final option to consider are the Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE speakers. These are not dedicated on-wall speakers, but they CAN be wall mounted and work pretty darn well that way. They're bigger, boxier-looking speakers though, so if you really like the sleek, slender look of something like the Revel on-walls, they might not be quite what you're wanting in terms of looks. But for their low price, they're really good speakers that can play a bit louder than the Revel on-walls, they're very linear and accurate, I really love the SEAS SE tweeter that they use, and they're just a bit over 6 inches from front to back, so they're not much thicker than the dedicated on-wall speakers.

So, those are several good options. I think one of them should fit your needs nicely :) You've got the Revel M10 and C10 on-walls - with the option of M8 or Concerta S12 surrounds. I really like them overall. So if you don't need super loud output and you get a good sub that you can cross over at around 110Hz, they're champs for good sound and sleek looks. You've got the GoldenEar SuperSats, which aren't as linear and accurate as the Revels, but they handle poor placement about as well as any speakers I've heard. You've got the Jamo THX on-wall speakers, which cost more, but can really belt out the high volume levels if you need them. And you've got the Ascend HTM-200SE, which are considerably less expensive, really good, but maybe don't look as good and might not fit the space below the TV or look as good hanging on your wall ;)

Hope that helps!
 
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Sketty55

Audiophyte
Wow, thanks for such a detailed response! Greatly appreciate all of the info as this is a time consuming, and expensive purchase. It sounds like you do favour the revel concerta's among those that you have listed. I realize (as many, many others have stated) that preference depends on the ear, however as I mentioned, all of these higher end sets sounds great to me. I just want to ensure that I'm headed in the right direction.

I see that you have some experience with Paradigm's, but do you have any thoughts (or have you heard) the Paradigm Millenia lp's? If so, how do you think they compare with the Revel's or others you have listed?

Lastly, is there anything I should look for in a receiver to match up with these sets. The Pioneer elite sc-61 was recommended by a friend.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If I were doing in-wall speakers, I'd get Revel or KEF.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Wow, thanks for such a detailed response! Greatly appreciate all of the info as this is a time consuming, and expensive purchase. It sounds like you do favour the revel concerta's among those that you have listed. I realize (as many, many others have stated) that preference depends on the ear, however as I mentioned, all of these higher end sets sounds great to me. I just want to ensure that I'm headed in the right direction.

I see that you have some experience with Paradigm's, but do you have any thoughts (or have you heard) the Paradigm Millenia lp's? If so, how do you think they compare with the Revel's or others you have listed?

Lastly, is there anything I should look for in a receiver to match up with these sets. The Pioneer elite sc-61 was recommended by a friend.
You're most welcome!

Yes, it certainly is confusing and time consuming since there are so many options out there. I DO favor the Revel Concerta on-walls in this price range, but, like I said, only so long as you can position them properly and keep them away from other surfaces. They're really made for that sort of look that you see in magazines - blank wall, flat panel TV hanging on the wall, slender on-wall speakers mounted around that TV. In that setup, they sound really good. Accurate, good imaging, surprisingly good soundstage. They just need obvious help in the bass and can't play super loud.

Over heard the Paradigm Cinema and Millenia on-wall speakers, but not the LP (low profile) Millenia model specifically. The thing is, there's no dedicated center version ore that speaker. Just like all the other Paradigm on-wall speakers. They sound quite good when they're vertical. I would assume the LP Millenia does as well. Paradigm speakers are all pretty good for the most part. But when you turn those same speakers horizontal for center channel duty, the sound definitely changes and you lose the seamless pans across the front. The Def Tech on-walls have the same problem. All I'm saying is, be mindful of that sound if and when your auditioning these speakers for yourself. Play something with a sound panning across the front. If you can plainly tell when the sound moves from speaker to speaker, that's a bad thing. It should be seamless and perfectly matched. The Revel M10 & C10 do that better than pretty much any other on-walls.

If you're ok with the plain, boxy looks though, don't overlook the Ascend HTM-200SE. They're considerably less expensive, but very good. I can understand not liking their looks or slightly thicker (from front to back) shape though.

For the receiver, I've no beef with the Pioneer unit at all. I happen to favor Audyssey auto-setup and room correction rather heavily though. I think Audyssey's results are notably better than Pioneer's MCACC program or Yamaha's YPAO program (I don't like YPAO at all, to be honest).

Onkyo, Denon and Marantz are the companies that use Audyssey. Onkyo crams more features for the price into their receivers than anyone else. Their receivers do tend to run hot though. And they tend to have more vocal detractors since those heat issues sometimes lead to more problems or failures. I still like Onkyo though. The TX-NR709 from last year is a great deal and the least expensive receiver that offers full 7.1 pre-outs so that you can add separate, higher power amps if you like. The new TX-NR717 took some odd steps backwards, including going two steps down in the version of Audyssey that's included, so I certainly favor the 709 for a lower priced receiver. The new TX-NR818 is a stellar candidate if you're up in the $1000 price range though. It's the least expensive receiver with Audyssey's highest level MultEQ XT32 program, and just feature packed all around.

If you don't care about pre-outs, nothing beats the Denon AVR-1712 for the price. The newer AVR-1913 is a good unit too. You have to go all the way up to the more expensive units to get pre-outs though. Marantz basically has sister models to the Denons, but Marantz adds pre-outs at lower price points, so they're a good option.

I love that Onkyo TX-NR818 though. If you've got $1000 to spend on the receiver, it's got pretty much every feature I'd want in a receiver. But your budget will decide. Personally, I stick with Onkyo, Denon and Marantz though. But it's honestly mostly because of Audyssey ;)
 
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