Of Experts, Advice, Marketing and $1500

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
But what about Pre's though Shady? I would imagine that processing signals differently would result in a different sound.
It would, depending on what kind of processing you select on the signal. In direct mode I am sure they would both sound identical. But if you start to dig into EQ's and different surround modes, of course they will sound different. I think the Outlaw preprocessor would be simpler and so not as many things can go wrong, but the Onkyo will be more complex with a lot more options available to shape the sound. I would keep the Onkyo, if only for Audyssey MultiEQ 32XT. If you have a friend who can loan you a receiver or amplifier, you can try separate amplification to see if it will make a difference to see for yourself. The difference is likely to be so negligible you would see it would not be worth it. Btw, did you run Audyssey properly? Make sure you followed the directions for Audyssey, a poorly placed microphone will royally screw up the whole sound.
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
Thanks Shady, good advice. I'll re-run Audy to see if there's any change. I must admit that today I decided to walk around the room with eyes closed :)P) to really focus on the music. I was amazed at how different the system can sound according to where one sits/stands. From empty bass to booming bass, from loud clarity to muffled everything.

As I mentioned before, the 50% improvement by learning how to adjust the output to speakers (from Audy) may now be complemented by moving speakers around. I've tried 5 different settings, but I can see theres a lot more to be gained by further adjustment.

As to different receivers... I'll have to do the try for 30 days thing. Pretty new to this area I am afraid!
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
If I do go ahead with the XPA5, it seems logical to me to plug in my sub, fronts and centre into the amp. I know that leaves one channel free, but I'll use the PRE or the Onkyo to drive the rear surrounds.


  • Does that make sense?

  • And just use RCA cables to connect pre to amp?

Shady, following your advice: bought a top of the line Pioneer Class D receiver ($2K) to see if theres a sound difference with the Ascends. I am looking forward to reporting back, but not the setup really.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'll look forward to seeing your results. I think you should blindfold yourself and have someone switch the speakers between the amps so you don't know which one is playing. If you do that, make sure you TURN OFF the power on the amp that you disconnect or reconnect the speaker cable from. Get banana plugs for the speaker cable. Write down your results.

As for the XPA5, you wouldn't plug your sub into the XPA5, just the speakers. You seem to forget the sub already has its own amplifier! And yes, the Onkyo is more than adequate to power the surrounds, so you could could use the amp for the front three alone, and, that being the case, why not just get the XPA3.

By the way, I have what was once a top of the line Pioneer receiver with a pretty beefy amp (the receiver weighs over 60 lbs), it was the VSX-47TX Elite, nearly $3k receiver back in the day. I have used it with a few different speakers that I have also with other receivers and separate amps, and I have never noticed a difference between any of them. Its true that I wasn't expecting a difference, and that preconceived notion may have affected my judgement, but I am just relaying to you my experience. You may hear a difference whether it exists or not, that is why I recommend a blind listening test between the speakers. If you want a real difference, I would recommend taking that money and trying other speakers.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
If I do go ahead with the XPA5, it seems logical to me to plug in my sub, fronts and centre into the amp. I know that leaves one channel free, but I'll use the PRE or the Onkyo to drive the rear surrounds.


  • Does that make sense?

  • And just use RCA cables to connect pre to amp?

Shady, following your advice: bought a top of the line Pioneer Class D receiver ($2K) to see if theres a sound difference with the Ascends. I am looking forward to reporting back, but not the setup really.
Are they not selling the XPA3 anymore? I don't use an outboard amp because I find they are normally not necessary. Most drivers are not rated for high wattage. I'm a minimalist when it comes to audio.
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
Hi Guys,

I got the most phenomenal feedback and input from First Reflection, I'd like to state here publicly my sincere appreciation for the effort this man puts into this community.


A quick and brief update. I got the Pioneer SC 1527K hooked up - and I'll be frank - I hated doing it. Simple, but I hate doing a comparative analysis on the 30 day trial thing. Made sure to OK it with the store manager, I hated it so much.

So when I switched it on, I found a number of things. Much easier remote to deal with (quick), and some negs too. I quickly ran the full MCACC auto speaker setup, which was quite interesting really. Microphone on a tripod in the appropriate place (ie: exact place I set it up with the Audyssey 32XT - although that one required 8 different positions as is recommended). It set all the speakers to LARGE - interesting - and put the XOver at 80hz. Audy on the Onkyo put the fronts/centre at 40Hz, and the surrounds at 70hz.

MCACC set the speaker distance very accurately, whereas Audy was out by several feet. Both were run as recommended by the official makers.

With all the negative feeligns I had with this expensive Pioneer, I started it running a 5.1 Dolby music DVD I had tested just before with Audy/Onkyo.

Initial feel: amazement. Warm, rich, enveloping sound - providing clarity in some instruments (electronica, Depeche Mode) that I had not been able to identify before. Gone was the harshness and as Dwaleke put it - "brightness".

Present was clarity and richness - not an enormous sense of loudness, but far more enjoyable. To be honest, I cannot listen to the Ascends with the Onkyo for more than 20mins, before my ears hurt from the high notes harshness. In my laymens terms, the treble is set to high and its painful.

Whats interesting is that my test came on the back of sore ears from listening to the Onkyo very critically today for some hours. I genuinely, honestly, blindfolded (I like to close my eyes and listen with my ears) can actually listen to music now for 30minutes without pain.

Thats got to say something.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Interesting results, I wonder if MCACC rolled off the highs a lot more than the Onkyo. Either way, if you are satisfied with the sound, that is what counts. You know what would be an interesting experiment, run the sound from the pre-outs on the Pioneer to the inputs on the Onkyo and then run the Onkyo on direct mode. That would help you determine if the Onkyo's processing was at fault or its amplifier.
 
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jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I got the most phenomenal feedback and input from First Reflection, I'd like to state here publicly my sincere appreciation for the effort this man puts into this community.
That is great to hear. Kudos to him.

MCACC set the speaker distance very accurately, whereas Audy was out by several feet. Both were run as recommended by the official makers.
Lots, maybe most, beginners get confused with "distance" (usually with subs, as they don't understand that it's total time delay including electrical distance with all the DSP going on). The only thing that really matters with distance is that they are accurate in relation to each other. If say 5' 7' 5', then 40' 42' 40' are just as fine. It's the relative that matters. If you don't believe me, receivers have an audio-video sync control. Mine has a delay that can be set from 0-250 ms, and the very smallest increment that I can adjust by is 5 ms. Well, 5 ms is over 5' as far as "distance" is concerned" (and 250 ms is over 250 ft!). If you adjust one click on the tiniest indent allowed on this control, no you haven't messed up "your distance", as the relative is all that matters.

Cheers.

edit: speaking of, been sooooo long, but I think I recall years ago that MCAAC not only doesn't calibrate for LFE, it didn't even go below 63hz. Therefore if Audy is calculating for total delay in the sub, maybe it provided some reason for the differing distances, as far as what the mftr allowed as far as the range of distance or something. Far fetched dumb guess, but anyway, one has to wonder about the LFE.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Wow. Thanks for the kind words! :)

If nothing else, I think George - and by extension, everyone else reading this thread - is certainly getting a great, first hand education as to just how much room acoustics, placement, and setup really do affect the sound. And I, for one, certainly appreciate that George is coming at this with patience, persistence, and a willingness to go through a whole bunch of trial and error.

I harp on about the importance of the room as being a full 50% of any sound system, and I bemoan how decidedly NOT "plug and play" a great sound system really is. The audio side of home theatre is deceptively complex. Each individual part is not necessarily all that complicated. But there are a lot of parts! And more than that, they all need to work together. And that's where things get really tricky.

Since I have a fair bit of first hand experience with Onkyo's current higher-end lineup of receivers, I still don't think the 818 is inherently "to blame". Hopefully, George and I will be able to talk further, and possibly sort out some issues with that 818. I'm optimistic :)

But I think what's really important to note here is that all indications are that the Ascend speakers are not inherently flawed. The CMT-340SE have exceptionally wide and linear dispersion. That tends to make the effects of the room's reflections more pronounced. And George's experience of walking around the room and easily hearing the difference in sound quality at various locations within the room are consistent with that expectation. I personally prefer these types of wide, even dispersion speakers, because they are the only way to have a very wide "sweet spot", where every seat in the theatre is treated to similarly good sound. But I am also a strong advocate of acoustic room treatments, and reducing reflections and the effects of the room's acoustics - so these things go hand-in-hand.

At the moment, I've recommended that George wait on purchasing any room treatments because he does not plan to stay in this room long term. And to me, it makes more sense to focus on room treatments that will be designed for a more permanent installation in the future. But right now, I think George is suffering the consequences of having purchased speakers that very much interact with the room's acoustics, but without addressing those acoustics at the same time.

With the change in AV Receiver, it's also clear that the Ascend speakers are more than capable of conveying the changes in the signal chain. And again, I come back to them being very neutral and transparent speakers that simply "tell it like it is". Because of that, I once again do not think that the speakers themselves are inherently "to blame" for less than pleasing playback. In essence, they can sound any way you want them to sound. There simply need to be equalization adjustments made, and the Ascend speakers will accurately reflect those changes.

This is tough. But I keep coming back to the topic of setup and calibration because I know the capabilities of these products quite well. Thanks to George's patience and willingness to work through all of these issues, we're getting a great account of what I so often try to convey: great gear is only half of the audio equation! And even great products can produce disappointing results if there are problems with that other half.

I want nothing more than to get this system working to the point that George is truly happy with it. And if equipment changes are the only way to achieve that, I'm all for it! But I'm happy to see George's first hand account of just how much the room's acoustics, and changes to the setup and calibration really do affect the sound. If we're aware of that, then we're on the right path. Now we just need to take away all the wrong turns and dead ends, and we'll be in business! ;)
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
Very excited to read what's being written, and hopefully this long thread will help other noobs learn how to take an inspired purchase and make it great - for them.

I'll be reporting back with findings, and Josten, thanks for educating me on the distance equation for Audy! Shady, also to you for the interesting idea of joining Pio to the Onkyo and trying that out.

Awesome stuff gentlemen. FirstReflection - looking forward to working with you Sir
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
Back after a holiday abroad, and one of the things I did prior to going, was to unplug all electrical components in case there was a surge/ storm.

All I have now is the Onkyo 818, PS3, ATV1+3, Ascends and HSU. I did add a 230mm fan though (USB powered) on top of the Onk to help draw away some of the heat. It works.

Having said that: its clear to me now that while I was away, little sound elves and fairies played around with the system to bring pure sonic joy to my ears when I reconnected everything. It sounds awesome now. Big, expressive, clear, wonderful quality.

The only change was removing toe-in on the Ascends, which I did before I went on holiday.

Kind of makes me wish I had not ordered the XPA5 which is awaiting my pickup. Although it will be used handily to create a three zone listening experience.


Not sure why that happened, but maybe my ears popped on the airplane or something. Who knows. But it sure is awesome.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Ha! Weird :p

Well, I'm certainly very glad to hear that the Ascend speakers and TX-NR818 receiver are finally living up to the sound quality that I know they possess. It's the reason I recommended them, along with the HSU subwoofer, so strongly! :D

Very strange that there was such an obvious, audible change in their sound though. That indicates to me that there really might have been some sort of cabling or connection issue back when you were first disappointed with them. It doesn't sound like you re-wired everything, but I'm wondering if it was as simple as a somewhat loose electrical connection - as in, literally the power cord for the TX-NR818 Receiver. Maybe a less than solid connection to the wall outlet. Stranger things have happened!

A receiver like the 818 can draw a considerable amount of current. If it had a less than solid connection to the wall outlet in the past, that could definitely have caused issues. I dunno. That's my best guess! There shouldn't be such a large change in audio quality without having changed anything! lol

But yeah. The main thing is that it's sounding more like the way it is supposed to now! More like the way I know those Ascend speakers and that 818 receiver are capable of sounding! So that's most definitely good news.

I hate to say it, but this might be just another case where the old, "REALLY make sure that all of your connections and wiring are in good order" advice saves the day, yet again! I know that no one is ever really going to take that advice seriously...including me! :p But the sheer number of times I've had a problem - in my system or someone else's - turn out to be some sort of wire or connection. Well, it's the obvious advice that just keeps on giving :p Honestly, I can't think of any other explanation. It has to be something that you unplugged and then plugged back in, since those were the only changes that you made! Seems so ridiculous sometimes. But hey, whatever works, right?

:D
 
H

hizzaah

Full Audioholic
Back after a holiday abroad, and one of the things I did prior to going, was to unplug all electrical components in case there was a surge/ storm.

All I have now is the Onkyo 818, PS3, ATV1+3, Ascends and HSU. I did add a 230mm fan though (USB powered) on top of the Onk to help draw away some of the heat. It works.

Having said that: its clear to me now that while I was away, little sound elves and fairies played around with the system to bring pure sonic joy to my ears when I reconnected everything. It sounds awesome now. Big, expressive, clear, wonderful quality.

The only change was removing toe-in on the Ascends, which I did before I went on holiday.

Kind of makes me wish I had not ordered the XPA5 which is awaiting my pickup. Although it will be used handily to create a three zone listening experience.


Not sure why that happened, but maybe my ears popped on the airplane or something. Who knows. But it sure is awesome.
Glad to hear it! I can't wait until I get to move into a place where i can use my Ascends and HSU to their full potential lol.

Some times all it takes is a bit of time away to make you remember how awesome your setup is. It's almost painful to watch movies at anyone else's house now :p
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
Hahaha FR - the funny thing is that yes, I did slightly change my electrical connections in that I run the lot off a high end surge protector. It naturally has its own on/off switch, which I switched off, and unlugged. I also plugged the HSU directly into the wall for a change instead of running it off the surge protector and well, there you go.

The sound is back! Now, I have to figure out how to unleash the sound potential of the Onk. Reason:

a) There is no volume increase from about 89% max to max max which oddly is around 96%. The "cap the max volume" option is unchecked.

b) Something changed cos I cant change the output level to each speaker. Its suddenly greyed out. Although, its definitely running the previous output levels for each speaker I selected :)


Hizzaah, I recently knocked some boxes off my couch just with the bass response on the HSU - it was awesome to watch :D


And lastly, I sprung for some Andrew Jones Pioneer towers to play on the middle floor. Its sure to offer nicer quality than just blasting music from downstairs. Three zone music - attttenttttion!
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
a) There is no volume increase from about 89% max to max max which oddly is around 96%. The "cap the max volume" option is unchecked.
Man, I have never maxed out my AVR and I have a huge room. I'm not familiar with Onk but on most AVRs, you can increase the master volume before you do the auto cal which provides more volume at a lower setting. Just set the master volume at 75db-85db before the auto cal.
 
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LitoGeorge

Audioholic Intern
Thanks PD! I'll be trying that out today. I dont last long at max volume, but I do have a kicker every now and then with a really good song. And yes, I have a tiny room. The weird is that on max volume, the concrete basement does such a nice job of containing noise that I can just heard a portion of the music when I stand right outside the house. If a car drives past, I hear nothing. Ace.
 

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