Norway Kills The FM Radio Star – Could It Happen Here?

[TLS Guy]

I have to disagree there. FM has the potential for excellent sound quality, and even when massively degraded through the typical commercial station's greed-motivated processing, still offers comparatively good sound.

The digital broadcast as used in the US ... the so-called "HD Radio" ... does not refer to "High Definition". It's just two letters of the alphabet designed to imply a quality that actually doesn't exist. The analog simulcast is higher quality.

Yes, HD stands for Hybrid Digital. I was highly critical of it when it first appeared. It has been greatly improved since introduction. I will say it is at least as good as analog FM now and does have a better S/N ratio.

The big issue for me is LED light bulbs. They emit huge amounts of RF right across the FM band, especially dimmable ones. Here is the noise spectrum of a Feit Dimmable A 19 bulb.

Other brands are similar. I have 150 LED bulbs in this house and most of them on dimmers.

The ones closest to the roof Yagi-Uda array cause the most trouble. Even if the upper level lights are off, I still get some noise if all the lower level great room lights are on. The lower level system only has analog FM. I can use the FM as long as I pay attention to which lights are on.

In the studio I have HD and only use that. Analog FM is no longer usable there.

In our other residence we did a remodel in the spring and added a bunch of BR 30 LEDs. That location is HD only now.

This interference goes a long way. My car has to be a long way from the house before I loose it. I now get it driving down streets in the Twin Cities as more and more people switch to LEDs.

The LED bulb is basically the death knell of analog FM. The RF noise had to go somewhere and I understand the spectrum was selected in consultation with the FCC. So this decision was almost certainly made with malice to hasten the end of analog FM.

I do agree analog FM can sound good, but not as good as other sources. It is not even close to as good as the BBC stream from England, which I get from my VPN tunnel. In fact some of the recordings I made of this year's Proms are among the best recordings I own and better then most CDs. I made some CDs of these Proms for my friend and he says one of those discs is the best recording he now owns. I know of no stream in North America that has that kind of quality however.

In addition to LED troubles we are now used to much wider dynamic range. FM has never had the dynamic range for classical music. The dynamic range on the BBC Proms this year from iPlayer was colossal. In addition FM is limited somewhat on both ends of the frequency spectrum. Digital broadcasting is not. Time to move on.

 

[herbu]

I understand the spectrum was selected in consultation with the FCC.

If that's true, it does sound like a conscious decision by our govt to begin the end of FM. I wonder why.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

In the car, it's jazz FM, AM for news / traffic info. At home it's 'net radio, I can sample stations from all over the world. I'm wondering if music bandwidth is being stolen by all the cellular phone twitnits and idiots with mindless cell phone conversations about how many times they farted this week, etc!
Everywhere I go some kid has a cell phone in their ear! Probably talking about the same rubbish as 3 days ago!

 

[Irvrobinson]

The LED bulb is basically the death knell of analog FM. The RF noise had to go somewhere and I understand the spectrum was selected in consultation with the FCC. So this decision was almost certainly made with malice to hasten the end of analog FM.

The FCC clarified its rules last year that no "harmful interference" can be emitted from LED lights. Also, the emissions spectrum in question is 30MHz to 1GHz, so it's not like the FCC took specific aim at FM radio, as you're implying. And in the US at least, the vast majority of FM listening takes place in vehicles, not in homes, so LED interference is irrelevant. (I'm assuming that OEM LED headlights will not cause FM interference, because automakers won't allow it.)

 

[TLS Guy]

The FCC clarified its rules last year that no "harmful interference" can be emitted from LED lights. Also, the emissions spectrum in question is 30MHz to 1GHz, so it's not like the FCC took specific aim at FM radio, as you're implying. And in the US at least, the vast majority of FM listening takes place in vehicles, not in homes, so LED interference is irrelevant. (I'm assuming that OEM LED headlights will not cause FM interference, because automakers won't allow it.)

Well I can tell you its harmful. The LEDs here make one Hell of a noise, and Eagan as well. As for cars going down streets now I'm hearing more and more LED noise in my car. Even out here as soon as I get to the little town of Laporte, population 150 I hear the LED noise. This is going to be a huge problem for FM as LEDs proliferate.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As for cars going down streets now I'm hearing more and more LED noise in my car. Even out here as soon as I get to the little town of Laporte, population 150 I hear the LED noise. This is going to be a huge problem for FM as LEDs proliferate.

That's interesting. Much of my time is spent in the SF Bay Area, where it seems numerous buildings and residences have LED lights (my building is 100% LED), and I've never noticed noise on FM, even on NPR which is mostly commentary. Perhaps my cars are too noisy overall, so the LED noise is masked.

 

[Bucknekked]

Well I can tell you its harmful. The LEDs here make one Hell of a noise, and Eagan as well. As for cars going down streets now I'm hearing more and more LED noise in my car. Even out here as soon as I get to the little town of Laporte, population 150 I hear the LED noise. This is going to be a huge problem for FM as LEDs proliferate.

I only listen to FM in the car/truck. Every time I'm in the car. I haven't listened to FM at home on an AVR for so long I can't remember when. I don't even install the antennae on my AVR's anymore.

Interesting points about LED noise. As far as the U.S. Feds turning off FM: I have no idea if they would or wouldn't. Interesting discussion however. I would never have thought this was even on anyones mind.

 

[Swerd]

Like Irv, I live near a large urban area with a lot of FM and TV broadcast signals, not to mention other sources of RFI. I don't have a lot of LED light bulbs now, and I doubt if any of them are the dimming kind. I've also never encountered the LED bulb noise problem that TLS Guy describes.

My AVR's tuner is plenty good enough for noise-free reception, but most Washington stations are about 15 miles away. Some Baltimore stations are 40-50 miles away, but I can easily get them too. Like real estate, FM and TV reception is all about location, location, location.

Unlike TLS Guy, I don't require a high-gain Yagi antenna for FM reception. In fact, selectivity is more of a problem than sensitivity for FM reception. I can easily get overlapping FM stations with a low-gain omni-directional antenna. Instead I use a moderate-gain directional antenna with a rotor.

I suspect the FCC eventually wants to sell off the unused FM frequencies, as they have with the low band TV frequencies in most local markets. But it may take a long time before HD radio, or some form of digital broadcast audio replaces analog FM radio. Remember how long it was from the time the FCC announced it's plans to replace analog broadcast TV with digital TV to the time it actually took place? If I recall, it was some 15 or 20 years.

 

[TLS Guy]

That's interesting. Much of my time is spent in the SF Bay Area, where it seems numerous buildings and residences have LED lights (my building is 100% LED), and I've never noticed noise on FM, even on NPR which is mostly commentary. Perhaps my cars are too noisy overall, so the LED noise is masked.

I think there are several reasons for this. Yes, my vehicle is very quiet.

This is the cold North Country. In our winters CFL lights do not work outside. They blow and before they blow give very little light. So before LEDs everything outside was incandescent. So we almost certainly have a lot more LEDs in garage forecourts and peoples outdoor yard and driveway lights.

Small LED bulbs do not seem to cause much problem. It is the big cans, especially BR 40s. We probably have close to 100 BR40 LEDs in cans here and most on dimmers and they are the higher powered 17 variety. I have noted that the higher the bulb wattage the more the RF, which is what you would expect. In this house FM is now to all intense and purposes useless in its analog form. The HD signal is totally immune from this problem, so that is what I use now. It sounds better then the MPR internet stream as that is MP3. HD uses ac custom proprietary version of AC3. The AC 3 codecs are head and shoulders above the others.

 

[wiyosaya]

I still listen to FM and AM radio in my car anyway. I am not in favor of buying a data plan for my cell phone which would allow me to stream the stations that I listen to OTA in the car. Call me old fashioned if you like. If my car radio had HD Radio, I would listen to that. I think HD Radio is a viable alternative to AM/FM.

It would be interesting if ATSC 3.0 allowed for audio only, i.e., radio, transmission. Anyone know if there is an "audio only" provision for ATSC 3.0? I know that one of my local TV stations has an audio only sub-channel on their ATSC 1.0 transmission.

 

[haraldo]

Well, I got an FM rado in my wife's car (BMW) and somethings gotta change very soon

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I got an FM rado in my wife's car (BMW) and somethings gotta change very soon

So what is the general reaction to this in Norway?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think there are several reasons for this. Yes, my vehicle is very quiet.

This is the cold North Country. In our winters CFL lights do not work outside. They blow and before they blow give very little light. So before LEDs everything outside was incandescent. So we almost certainly have a lot more LEDs in garage forecourts and peoples outdoor yard and driveway lights.

Small LED bulbs do not seem to cause much problem. It is the big cans, especially BR 40s. We probably have close to 100 BR40 LEDs in cans here and most on dimmers and they are the higher powered 17 variety. I have noted that the higher the bulb wattage the more the RF, which is what you would expect. In this house FM is now to all intense and purposes useless in its analog form. The HD signal is totally immune from this problem, so that is what I use now. It sounds better then the MPR internet stream as that is MP3. HD uses ac custom proprietary version of AC3. The AC 3 codecs are head and shoulders above the others.

By pure coincidence, I just installed LED lights in my garage yesterday. Your posts intrigued me enough that I tested the FM quality in all three cars in the garage with the engines turned off, while all three LED fixtures were glowing brightly, one directly over each car. I couldn't detect any noise at all on three different FM stations in any of the cars. (I will say this though, the B&O set-up in the Audi sounds better than the systems in the Porsche or the BMW. The Porsche's is really horrible, not that I ever listen to it. The BMW's is pretty good, but BMW's ergonomics for the sound system is a crime against humanity. iDrive. Yuck.)

 

[haraldo]

So what is the general reaction to this in Norway?

To be honest, there is really no big discussions on this topic at all as I have seen... Mostly ignorance to the topic as far as I can see, there are some threads on the topic of overly compression on some of the DAB transmission and how horribly quality it really may lead to, but still nothing big...

We probably see it as something inevitable to happen and better get it done...

 

[TLS Guy]

By pure coincidence, I just installed LED lights in my garage yesterday. Your posts intrigued me enough that I tested the FM quality in all three cars in the garage with the engines turned off, while all three LED fixtures were glowing brightly, one directly over each car. I couldn't detect any noise at all on three different FM stations in any of the cars. (I will say this though, the B&O set-up in the Audi sounds better than the systems in the Porsche or the BMW. The Porsche's is really horrible, not that I ever listen to it. The BMW's is pretty good, but BMW's ergonomics for the sound system is a crime against humanity. iDrive. Yuck.)

That is only one bulb and I assume no dimmers. Also you may be close to the transmitter. I'm 45 miles from the MPR transmitter. Analog FM is a dead loss here now unless most of the light are out and all of them closest to the antenna on the roof.

 

[TLS Guy]

To be honest, there is really no big discussions on this topic at all as I have seen... Mostly ignorance to the topic as far as I can see, there are some threads on the topic of overly compression on some of the DAB transmission and how horribly quality it really may lead to, but still nothing big...

We probably see it as something inevitable to happen and better get it done...

DAB transmissions do not have to be compressed, and the BBC use much less on their classical music program, but lots on speech and pop music which sounds lousy anyway.

 

[MattyB]

HD Radio in the USA is nowhere near as ubiquitous as DAB is in the UK which surprises me somewhat. You would think that a high-end receiver with all the other bells and whistles would have HD radio, but no most manufacturers put a very vanilla AM/FM tuner in their systems, even their top-of-the-range kit. Even RDS is quite rare.

 

[TLS Guy]

HD Radio in the USA is nowhere near as ubiquitous as DAB is in the UK which surprises me somewhat. You would think that a high-end receiver with all the other bells and whistles would have HD radio, but no most manufacturers put a very vanilla AM/FM tuner in their systems, even their top-of-the-range kit. Even RDS is quite rare.

That is absolutely true.

Receivers and Pre/pros used to have HD. However initially the quality was not that good and stations were, and still are, slow to adopt HD. Only the public radio system adopted it in a big way. So manufacturers put the money into streaming licenses. The cost to a station of adding HD is enormous. The system is really complex and trouble prone as a result.

The next issue is that the Internet streams in the US are poor with most being low bit rate MP3 streams. The US is very backward and slow to adopt higher bit rates and above all the AC 3 + codec with MPEG DASH. So our Internet radio streams are just not really listenable.

The it all gets compounded by the fact that the stand alone FM tuner with HD is now a rarity and expensive. The best vintage FM analog tuners are vintage.

Then we have the huge problem in the US that due to bribery and "Back Handers" we got into the wrong digital broadcast system. Unlike DAB and DAB plus which can stand alone, our hybrid iBiquity IBOC system requires an analog FM signal to carry the HD signal. It requires that to carry the duplicate of the analog and HD 2 and HD3, which are additional channels.

So in order to phase out FM in the US we would have to start from scratch and go with DAB plus. That would mean everyone would need new equipment for terrestrial broadcasts. The only alternative would be to go to streaming only.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That is only one bulb and I assume no dimmers. Also you may be close to the transmitter. I'm 45 miles from the MPR transmitter. Analog FM is a dead loss here now unless most of the light are out and all of them closest to the antenna on the roof.

Six bulbs total, no dimmer, but I probably am quite close to the transmitters. I chose the three stations to sweep the band: 88.5, 99.9, and 105.7MHz.

 

[Hi Ho]

I never listen to music on the radio but I do listen to talk radio a lot and considering the number of listeners that a station like KIRO FM gets here in Seattle I can't imagine FM going away any time soon. My car has HD radio and I live in an area where that cuts in and out. It seamlessly switches between HD Radio and regular FM but it is obvious when the static cuts in that it is no longer receiving the digital signal.

With that said, I don't even listen to the actual broadcast that much anymore. I download the podcasts of all the shows and listen from my iPhone so if FM was turned off tomorrow I imagine I wouldn't care that much. However, with the lack of HD Radio adoption in the US I'm sure many consumers do not have HD Radio equipment in their cars or homes and the radio stations would lose a lot of listeners if they didn't have the FM broadcasts.

Finally, satellite radio is a joke. My car came with 6 months of free Sirius/XM and I played around with it for a couple days before deciding it wasn't worth using even for free. The sound quality is horrendous. It sounds like a 96kb MP3 stream from the 90's. It also cuts out under every bridge and when the road is lined with trees on the south side (which is a lot of roads in Washington). Apple Music offers much better sound quality and the ability to choose any song I want for less money.