annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I am looking for a replacement turntable for my father. He is not really an audiphile but likes music.

I want something simple, no frills, automatic or manual does not matter. New or used does not matter. A heavy platter is a plus but not necessary. Belt drive is preferred.

He needs a low maintinence table with good overall performance. He is replacing a 30+ yr. old Dual (I believe it was Dual).

I am looking for something around $100-$200

Thanks!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am looking for a replacement turntable for my father. He is not really an audiphile but likes music.

I want something simple, no frills, automatic or manual does not matter. New or used does not matter. A heavy platter is a plus but not necessary. Belt drive is preferred.

He needs a low maintinence table with good overall performance. He is replacing a 30+ yr. old Dual (I believe it was Dual).

I am looking for something around $100-$200

Thanks!
I would go after this one.

Good vintage turntables, I think, are a better bet by far than similarly priced new ones.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Technics 1200/1210.

Direct drive, high torque, no frills, and a lot of history to back it up. Can still buy them new, used might be closer to your budget. Does your budget include a cartridge?




Sexy
 
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annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Thanks for the recommendations so far. We have a Grado catridge we will be using on the table. I do not remember which model but it was a pretty nice one. I think it was $50.00 at 50% off or so.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the recommendations so far. We have a Grado catridge we will be using on the table. I do not remember which model but it was a pretty nice one. I think it was $50.00 at 50% off or so.
How far are you from Seuss Electronics? They should have something.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The Technics table suggested above is superb. The tone arm is not great, no where near the quality of the table, motor, etc. But that can be changed out later on as an upgrade if you want the highest level of performance. Combine the Technics SL-1200MKII on up with a high grade arm and high performance cartridge, and it will easily rival any audiophile table at any price in terms of actual performance objectively. But, you can still get great performance with the stock arm. This table will last a life time, easily, and every part of it screams high quality and engineering. This table is not made cheap like the so called entry level audiophile tables in the same price range. This table is made of thick cast aluminum, and has a massive lower rubber dampening block to make it inert. The platter is cast aluminum and has a lower and upper thick rubber mat to make it inert. The motor and speed controller are top notch, with incredible speed stability. The so called entry level audiophile tables in this price range are made usually from a piece of MDF with no mechanisms to make it inert, and use cheap quality motors with very poor speed stability in comparison to the Technics unit. Now, the entry level audiophile tables have one single advantage: they usually have a better behaving arm(lower resonance).

As for the cartridge, I generally recommend against Grado carts. They often have poor tracking and inner groove distortion problems(the inner grooves of record will play back with a noticeable distorted sound) with even the slightest imperfection in set up. The cheapest really high grade cartridge is the Audio Techhnica AT440ML, which is around $80 USD. It has superb tracking, no inner groove distortion problems and is basicly neutral until the high mid range. The treble band starts to increase in level and by 10kHz or so, you have about a 2dB rise in treble. This can be counteracted with a shelving filter if you have such filter available on any of your hardware. If you want an even more neutral sounding cartridge, the Denon DL-110 has a very neutral response, superb tracking, no inner groove distortion issues, and it's deviation from flat is that in the upper treble, it has a slight roll off, which actually helps most recordings to sound more realistic/natural. It's $140 USD, and you really can't get a much better cartridge, perceptually, even if you spend 10x the amount.

If the price range above is too high for the table, I recommend used. You can get some great 80's era Technics tables made similarly to the SL-1200 for $100 or under in superb condition on eBay. Ask me about specific models that are built to a similar standard if interested.

-Chris
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
The Technics table suggested above is superb. The tone arm is not great, no where near the quality of the table, motor, etc. But that can be changed out later on as an upgrade if you want the highest level of performance. Combine the Technics SL-1200MKII on up with a high grade arm and high performance cartridge, and it will easily rival any audiophile table at any price in terms of actual performance objectively. But, you can still get great performance with the stock arm. This table will last a life time, easily, and every part of it screams high quality and engineering. This table is not made cheap like the so called entry level audiophile tables in the same price range. This table is made of thick cast aluminum, and has a massive lower rubber dampening block to make it inert. The platter is cast aluminum and has a lower and upper thick rubber mat to make it inert. The motor and speed controller are top notch, with incredible speed stability. The so called entry level audiophile tables in this price range are made usually from a piece of MDF with no mechanisms to make it inert, and use cheap quality motors with very poor speed stability in comparison to the Technics unit. Now, the entry level audiophile tables have one single advantage: they usually have a better behaving arm(lower resonance). -Chris
If the chassis and the speed fluctuations are inaudable, does it really matter?
Is there a big difference in sound between 0.05 and 0.005 THD in an amp? Its called diminishing returns. I would think that the tonearm/cartridge plays a bigger role in the over all sound of a turntable and no matter how solid the base, if the tone arm can't track or resonates, its not going to sound as well.
Also, these cheap entry turntables that you call them also have mechanisms employed to isolate the motor from the plinth.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
If the chassis and the speed fluctuations are inaudable, does it really matter?
Is there a big difference in sound between 0.05 and 0.005 THD in an amp? Its called diminishing returns. I would think that the tonearm/cartridge plays a bigger role in the over all sound of a turntable and no matter how solid the base, if the tone arm can't track or resonates, its not going to sound as well.
Also, these cheap entry turntables that you call them also have mechanisms employed to isolate the motor from the plinth.
I realize some of the following might not matter to you, but, I figured I'd say it anyways in case you find it of interest:

Speed control matters for a DJ, which is what the turntable was designed for. If your beatmatching, let go on the beat and the motor doesn't have enough torque it will lag and you'll have to press the record forward or try to drop it early... if speed fluctuates its hard to mix smooth because one beat would run away from the other even if their bpms are matched. Basically, you might not notice speed fluctuations on a turntable with one record on, but with two you can immediately. Technics 1200/1210s hold speed like a champ.

The heavy body was designed for DJs too. A problem with playing vinyl near a big soundsystem is turntable rumble. Basically the subwoofers vibrate the needle, but really any sound or vibration will do it. If its audible at low levels I have no idea, but at high levels if you get rumble you will for sure know it (it will go into a circle of boom and get louder and louder).

The heavy duty design all makes it last a long time, I've played on 1980s 1200s next to a 2007+ brand new 1200s. That's why I have no gripes recommending a used 1200.

But as far as home use is concerned, in my opinion if you were to put a 1200 next to some of the much more expensive audiophile turntables I have listened to, the difference is obvious. The Technics is a tank, and stuff double or more its cost is still partical board.

Also if you actually listen to a lot of records, its nice to change from 33 to 45 with the press of a button. I know people say the belts are an easy change, and they are, but its still a hassle if you just want to throw some records on.
 
G

Gatsby191

Audioholic
Audio Technica PL-120. Solid, Belt driven, 33-45-78 RPM speeds, plays very smooth, has it's own pre-amp. No feedback woes to speak of. Can still be purchased brand new for about $250.00. Only thing that I have grown to be frustrated with over this turntable, is the fact that it is not automatic. :( Still a great turntable for the money.
Good Luck! :) Joe B.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
How far are you from Seuss Electronics? They should have something.
They are close, but I don't pay retail for anything. I have access to a few items/brands at wholesale but have not seen a whole lot that interests me, yet.
 
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annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
The Technics table suggested above is superb. The tone arm is not great, no where near the quality of the table, motor, etc. But that can be changed out later on as an upgrade if you want the highest level of performance. Combine the Technics SL-1200MKII on up with a high grade arm and high performance cartridge, and it will easily rival any audiophile table at any price in terms of actual performance objectively. But, you can still get great performance with the stock arm. This table will last a life time, easily, and every part of it screams high quality and engineering. This table is not made cheap like the so called entry level audiophile tables in the same price range. This table is made of thick cast aluminum, and has a massive lower rubber dampening block to make it inert. The platter is cast aluminum and has a lower and upper thick rubber mat to make it inert. The motor and speed controller are top notch, with incredible speed stability. The so called entry level audiophile tables in this price range are made usually from a piece of MDF with no mechanisms to make it inert, and use cheap quality motors with very poor speed stability in comparison to the Technics unit. Now, the entry level audiophile tables have one single advantage: they usually have a better behaving arm(lower resonance).

As for the cartridge, I generally recommend against Grado carts. They often have poor tracking and inner groove distortion problems(the inner grooves of record will play back with a noticeable distorted sound) with even the slightest imperfection in set up. The cheapest really high grade cartridge is the Audio Techhnica AT440ML, which is around $80 USD. It has superb tracking, no inner groove distortion problems and is basicly neutral until the high mid range. The treble band starts to increase in level and by 10kHz or so, you have about a 2dB rise in treble. This can be counteracted with a shelving filter if you have such filter available on any of your hardware. If you want an even more neutral sounding cartridge, the Denon DL-110 has a very neutral response, superb tracking, no inner groove distortion issues, and it's deviation from flat is that in the upper treble, it has a slight roll off, which actually helps most recordings to sound more realistic/natural. It's $140 USD, and you really can't get a much better cartridge, perceptually, even if you spend 10x the amount.

If the price range above is too high for the table, I recommend used. You can get some great 80's era Technics tables made similarly to the SL-1200 for $100 or under in superb condition on eBay. Ask me about specific models that are built to a similar standard if interested.

-Chris
Chris,

I am very interested in the models of the older units near my budget. I may even pick one up for myself :D
 
A

alexsound

Audioholic
Audio Technica PL-120. Solid, Belt driven, 33-45-78 RPM speeds, plays very smooth, has it's own pre-amp. No feedback woes to speak of. Can still be purchased brand new for about $250.00. Only thing that I have grown to be frustrated with over this turntable, is the fact that it is not automatic. :( Still a great turntable for the money.
Good Luck! :) Joe B.
The PL-120 from AT is direct drive, not belt drive. It is still a good table.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I realize some of the following might not matter to you, but, I figured I'd say it anyways in case you find it of interest:

Speed control matters for a DJ, which is what the turntable was designed for. If your beatmatching, let go on the beat and the motor doesn't have enough torque it will lag and you'll have to press the record forward or try to drop it early... if speed fluctuates its hard to mix smooth because one beat would run away from the other even if their bpms are matched. Basically, you might not notice speed fluctuations on a turntable with one record on, but with two you can immediately. Technics 1200/1210s hold speed like a champ.

The heavy body was designed for DJs too. A problem with playing vinyl near a big soundsystem is turntable rumble. Basically the subwoofers vibrate the needle, but really any sound or vibration will do it. If its audible at low levels I have no idea, but at high levels if you get rumble you will for sure know it (it will go into a circle of boom and get louder and louder).

The heavy duty design all makes it last a long time, I've played on 1980s 1200s next to a 2007+ brand new 1200s. That's why I have no gripes recommending a used 1200.

But as far as home use is concerned, in my opinion if you were to put a 1200 next to some of the much more expensive audiophile turntables I have listened to, the difference is obvious. The Technics is a tank, and stuff double or more its cost is still partical board.

Also if you actually listen to a lot of records, its nice to change from 33 to 45 with the press of a button. I know people say the belts are an easy change, and they are, but its still a hassle if you just want to throw some records on.
I can appreciate the Technics for its durability of build. I just question or not if that kind of build is required for home use. My particle board turntable with the stock arm will blow the Technics out of teh water sonically because it has a much better tone arm than the Technics. The rumble and wow and flutter may be higher than the Techniques buts that just academic because it falls below the threshold of hearing.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
The Audio Technica PL-120 looks to be pretty decent. I have access to it at wholesale. It is at the higher range of the budget, but it seems like it would be a pretty decent value overall.

How is the AT-PL50 if on a tighter budget, anyone know?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
The Audio Technica PL-120 looks to be pretty decent. I have access to it at wholesale. It is at the higher range of the budget, but it seems like it would be a pretty decent value overall.

How is the AT-PL50 if on a tighter budget, anyone know?
I hate stating the obvious but you will at one point have to sit down and audition some of these tables. :eek:
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I realize some of the following might not matter to you, but, I figured I'd say it anyways in case you find it of interest:

Speed control matters for a DJ, which is what the turntable was designed for. If your beatmatching, let go on the beat and the motor doesn't have enough torque it will lag and you'll have to press the record forward or try to drop it early... if speed fluctuates its hard to mix smooth because one beat would run away from the other even if their bpms are matched. Basically, you might not notice speed fluctuations on a turntable with one record on, but with two you can immediately. Technics 1200/1210s hold speed like a champ.

The heavy body was designed for DJs too. A problem with playing vinyl near a big soundsystem is turntable rumble. Basically the subwoofers vibrate the needle, but really any sound or vibration will do it. If its audible at low levels I have no idea, but at high levels if you get rumble you will for sure know it (it will go into a circle of boom and get louder and louder).

The heavy duty design all makes it last a long time, I've played on 1980s 1200s next to a 2007+ brand new 1200s. That's why I have no gripes recommending a used 1200.

But as far as home use is concerned, in my opinion if you were to put a 1200 next to some of the much more expensive audiophile turntables I have listened to, the difference is obvious. The Technics is a tank, and stuff double or more its cost is still partical board.

Also if you actually listen to a lot of records, its nice to change from 33 to 45 with the press of a button. I know people say the belts are an easy change, and they are, but its still a hassle if you just want to throw some records on.
The SL-1200 was not designed with DJs in mind. It was designed first and foremost for hi-fi use. Matshuita corp designed this thing from the ground up. The reason it's now marketed and sold to DJs is for it's reliability. Copy cats by Gemini and Stanton are manufactured for DJs, and most of their models are shotty and fall tragically short in comparison to the Technics SL-1200 in terms of performance.
 
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