Newbee With First Post...Receiver "Overload" Condition

[Old Vet]

Good day all....brand new here with my first question. Much to learn so please be gentle.

Yesterday I finally got a pair of pretty rare old speakers I've been looking for for 30 years. Probably not the speakers of choice for many here but.....I liked them 30 years ago when I first saw/heard some....and have wanted some ever since. Finally found a pair in mint condition.

They're Cerwin Vega 316R's. Don't know all the specs on them.

So now here's my question.

They're hooked to a JVC receiver......specs below:

With 100 watts per channel for all 5 channels, the RX-6010VBK has the power necessary for todays demanding digital movie soundtracks. By using all discrete output devices, rather than inexpensive IC's, the RX-6010VBK ensures greater clarity, low distortion and wide dynamic range.
100 watts x 2 min. RMS, both channels driven into 8 ohms from 40Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.8% THD100 watts x 5 min. RMS, into 8 ohms, 1kHz, 0.8% THD

When I get a little carried away with the volume to hear these speakers "pound".....the receiver sometimes trips out and goes into an "overload" condition.

The manual says this is because the "speakers are overloaded because of high volume".

I never thought I could "overload" these speakers with this amp.

Can someone explain to me just what's happening here? And what I might be able to do to get what I want from these speakers without my receiver "overloading" and tripping out on me?

Thanks.

 

[markw]

Are they 4 ohm speakers? Please note that it doesn't appear that your receiver even mentions that, which is not an encouraging sign.

If it really doesn't like 4 ohm speakers, then you might get by at lower volumes but it will run out of steam and fail if pushed hard.

 

[Old Vet]

Good morning Mark

Front of the speaker says "impedance 4-8 ohm".

Here's what the amp specs say:

100 watts x 5 min. RMS, into 8 ohms, 1kHz, 0.8% THD

100 watts x 2 min. RMS, both channels driven into 8 ohms from 40Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.8% THD


Thanks.

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum!

What's likely happening is that the receiver is passing more current than it is designed to do for long periods of time, and it's overheating. So, you're not overloading the speakers - you're overloading the receiver's amps. It's a great thing that it has a protection circuit to shut down before damaging itself.

Lower impedance speakers will draw more current relative to higher impedance speakers for a given sound level (with everything else being equal, like their sensitivity rating). That's why Mark asked about the impedance. A lot of receivers aren't rated for speakers with a 4-ohm impedance because of the increased current draw. However, as Mark was saying, at lower volumes the current draw won't be very high, so receivers can handle it. It's only when you start playing material louder and louder that the current draw goes up. For every extra 10 dB of sound volume (which is often sited as being twice as loud), you use 10x the amount of power...so the current can increase quickly as you crank that volume knob.

 

[ImcLoud]

I remember them cv's, they were like $1500 in the 80's !!!! If I were you I would grab an amp with more power, something like a emotiva upa200 UPA-200 | 125W x 2 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifi that is on sale and a cheap preamp would be a start, but personally I would be looking more towards 200+ for them guys, if you play loud, you will be amazed how far a little headroom goes...

 

[Old Vet]

"I remember them cv's, they were like $1500 in the 80's !!!! "

Yup....those are the babies.

One of the many things I'm not clear on......sooooo many technicalities......is:

the amp says "100 watts into 8 ohms"

the speakers say "impedance 4-8 ohms"

so am I working with "apples to apples" here? Thought so.

or am I working with components that are not compatible?

as for the "more power"......was wondering if a power amp might be in order? "shrug"

This JVC amp is going to be replaced in a couple weeks with a Denon......have to look it up again for the specs. Getting it from my Son who says it's 85W per channel.

have to confirm that again though.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Don't confuse yourself. The JVC is not a 'quality' product, it's a cheap product. It shuts down because it can't sustain the load you are putting on it for the length of time you want to. I think that these manufacturers may find themselves in a class-action lawsuit at some point for their claims which simply can't be realized, but for the majority of consumers, who don't crank their speakers, the power output of a typical A/V receiver is plenty.

Of course, you don't know, when you crank things up, exactly how much power the receiver is putting out or what the draw is.

Perhaps you are requesting 125 watts of power. The receiver is NOT limited to 100 watts. It can do more. If you demand more than 100 watts per channel at any time, and then play it as sustained volume, then you are over-driving the amplifier and it shuts down to protect itself.

Unless you have some way to measure the current draw, you don't really have a good way to know how much power you are demanding as you turn the volume up. I'm not sure you are or are not requesting more than 100 watts, but without knowing, by metering the load, you really can't repost the manufacturers specifications. It may just be a case where you need more power, and more reliable power, from a dedicated amplifier so you can turn things up.

Plenty of amplifier options out there, but most aren't inexpensive for good clean power.

 

[anamorphic96]

The Denon receiver your looking at has a good chance of doing the same thing as the JVC. While Cerwin Vegas will sound ok to good at loud levels with a receiver. You wont get the best out of them until you get a proper amplifier or receiver rated into a 4 ohm load.

If your looking for a good receiver and not a dedicated amp to drive these the Harman Kardon 3490 would be a good fit with the Cerwin Vegas.

 

[markw]

Face it friend. To drive those speakers the way they were meant to be driven, and the way you seem to want to play yhem, you need a unit that can deliver lots of watts cleanly to a four ohm load. That's not an easy task for just any receiver.

I'd be looking towards a 200+ wpc power amp or, if cost is an issue, start looking at professional power amps from Crown or Behringer.

Also, make sure that whatever receiver you have, or wind up with, has preamp outputs. Not all do.

 

[Swerd]

Before everyone recommends an expensive big-iron amp, I want to agree with BMXTRIX that this receiver is probably not as powerful as JVC claims.

Here's what the amp specs say:

100 watts x 5 min. RMS, into 8 ohms, 1kHz, 0.8% THD

100 watts x 2 min. RMS, both channels driven into 8 ohms from 40Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.8% THD

Usually amp specs are given in the full audio range of 20 Hz to 20 kHz. If this JVC receiver claims 100 watts × 2 channels at 40 Hz to 20 kHz, then it will deliver less power (maybe much less) when measured down to 20 Hz.

Front of the speaker says "impedance 4-8 ohm".

Impedance is not a constant number for a loudspeaker. It can vary widely with the frequency of the sound. If the impedance drops to a minimum of 4 ohms or lower in the frequency range of about 50 to 150 Hz, then a speaker can be an overload for a weaker amp, such as your JVC.

A more potent AVR, such as most Denons, might make a difference.

 

[zieglj01]

If your looking for a good receiver and not a dedicated amp to drive these the Harman Kardon 3490 would be a good fit with the Cerwin Vegas.

Good option and decent price
Amazon.com: Harman Kardon 3490 120-Watt Stereo Receiver: Electronics

 

[Old Vet]

Thanks guys.....love forums like this. Such a wealth of knowledge to draw upon.

"make sure that whatever receiver you have, or wind up with, has preamp outputs. Not all do."

The Denon I'll have in a couple of weeks does have preamp outputs.

I'll be making a trip to a local audio shop soon to talk with them and have a look at power amps.

 

[Old Vet]

So I just talked with a guy who told me that I have to find a power amp with a volume control because the volume control on my a/v receiver cannot be used to adjust volume to the two big speakers. Otherwise I'd need a pre-amp as well. That right?

Am I seeing things correctly? The power amp would just power my CV's I just got? And that amp needs it's own vol control.

And my a/v receiver would continue to power my other 3 speakers (center and rear)......and my a/v receiver volume control will adjust volume to them?

Or am I out in left field somewhere???????

 

[markw]

Eh?

I'm quite curious asto "the guys" reasoning here.

Assuming the receiver you will be getting has official preamp outputs, and you say that Denon DOES have them, your volume will be controlled by the volume control on the receiver itself. Your power amp does not need them.

IOW, the preamp is already in the front part of the Denon and is already running the show.

So, assuming you have the new power amp connected to the front right and left channel preamp outputs, and the big momma CV's connected to that power amp, and the rest of your speakers remain connected to the Denon, the Denon's volume control will control everything. just as you think it should.

 

[Old Vet]

Great Mark....thanks. That's kinda what I was thinking.....and hoped to hear here.

This "guy" said it wouldn't work that way and I'd need a power amp with it's own vol control for the "big boys".

That's good news.

 

[BMXTRIX]

What model are you talking about? Seriously, always talk with a make and a model number so that we can give you the facts as best we know them.

Most Denon receivers don't have preouts on them.

 

[Old Vet]

Denon AVR - 1906

http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=hometheatre&subid=avreceivers&productid=avr1906

 

[BMXTRIX]

The AVR-1906, despite it's age, is a decent preamp. You won't get any of the benefits that are available with HD audio that can be delivered over HDMI only, but you can feed it digital coaxial and toslink connections for true surround sound, and if you have an equipped player, you can hook up the analog audio inputs.

It has 7.1 audio preouts which can be configured as you desire and you do NOT need an external volume control at all. The Denon will act as the preamp and adjust volume on those RCA connections just fine. If this is a typical design, then the internal amplifiers will be available at the same time as the preouts are available and you can connect speakers as appropriate.

That amplifier, I would say, is not one bit better than the JVC you already have. It may be better, but it certainly isn't much better. It's rated at 80 WPC into an 8 ohm load and is rated at 110WPC into a 6 ohm load. It is not listed as 4 ohm stable, which means it will overheat and shut down when used at higher volume with a 4 ohm load (sound familiar?).

The external amplifier is the way to do things if you want good audio levels without shutdown. A quality amplifier is key, not some random specifications. The Denon, at least, can give you the preouts you need to take your sound to a good amplifier.

 

[Old Vet]

BMXTRIX.......

Great info thank you very much.

Something still not clear to me is the 4 ohm vs 8 ohm business.

As for the Denon I'll have in a couple of weeks:

"It is not listed as 4 ohm stable, which means it will overheat and shut down when used at higher volume with a 4 ohm load (sound familiar?)."

What about the speakers saying.... "impedance 4-8 Ohms"??????\

Are they 4? Are they 8? Does the impedance vary and flop back and forth from one to the other......or vary somewhere in between? When and why? And what would these impedance variations do to the amp?

So many questions huh? LOL Sorry.

 

[YourDhass]

Great Mark....thanks. That's kinda what I was thinking.....and hoped to hear here.

This "guy" said it wouldn't work that way and I'd need a power amp with it's own vol control for the "big boys".

That's good news.

yeah its frustrating what you hear from the people at these stores. one "guy" told me that there was no way i could make my old non-hdmi-compatible box tv work with a blu ray and my new denon x2000. lo and behold. component cables from the back of the blu ray into the back of the tv. audio cables from the blu ray to the receiver. rocket science.......

i do have one question though:

Unless you have some way to measure the current draw, you don't really have a good way to know how much power you are demanding as you turn the volume up. I'm not sure you are or are not requesting more than 100 watts, but without knowing, by metering the load, you really can't repost the manufacturers specifications. It may just be a case where you need more power, and more reliable power, from a dedicated amplifier so you can turn things up.

ive also been wondering if im pushing my receiver too hard. is there really no way to tell? what about some broscience methods? especially since my x2000 was open box, i want to be really careful on babying the thing