New Subwoofer recommendations

[joegator81]

I've been doing a lot of research lately and have read a lot of threads on this site and others regarding subs from HSU, SVS, RA, PSA, Rythmik and others, and I hear a lot about output, db's, fudged numbers etc. What I don't really hear people talk about is actual sound quality and detail in regards to music. Whenever speakers or DACs/turntables, preamps, and so on get mentioned the discussion almost always centers around sound quality. That is what I am primarily interested in as long as the output will be enough for my 25'x21'x8-10' (vaulted ceiling) living room, which is where I do all of my music listening and movie watching. The room opens up to a dining room which is about 15'x12'x8'. There are two hallways leading off of the living room as well. As you can see I am working with a big space here.


My system includes:


Salk Songtowers, Songcenter, Songsurrounds, and Dayton Audio bookshelves for rear duty.


Home Theater: Marantz SR7008, Emerald Physics 100.2SE power amp, Oppo BDP-83, X-Box 360, Pioneer 65" Plasma.


Music Only: Belles 22A hybrid tube pre w/ HT pass through and a second set of line outs which send a left/right signal to the subwoofer, Emerald Physics 100.2SE, Clearaudio Concept turntable, Halide HD Dac.


My current subwoofer is the Epik Legend w/ BASH 300W plate amp replacing the original POS amp which burned out w/in the non-honored warranty period, you all know that story so moving right along....


I am most interested in getting the right subs for music but I also want good value as well and enough output to satisfy HT duty. I think dual 15's is a must and here is why:


1) Very large area


2) I want a single sub for both my left and right channels when listening only in stereo w/ no receiver processing applied - Question: if a single sub w/ dual 15's is deemed large enough and strong enough to work in my room would it process the L/R line input separately through each driver as it would with separate subs?


3) Obviously, more even sound is always nice.


I'm sure some of you may have a question about how I plan to crossover the main speakers for 2 channel listening. I plan on either 1) just crossing over right above the natural roll off point of my speakers (around 40hz) or 2) using a passive Harrison labs line filter to limit my speakers to either 60 or 80hz.


I will use Audyssey XT32 w/ dual sub eq for HT calibration. My room is well treated w/ a large area rug, corner traps, heavy curtains, bass traps, diffusing objects, etc. Its far from perfect but sounds pretty good. There is always room for improvement though.


I listen fairly loud but not what many would consider reference levels but I wouldn't mind the capability to do so.


Why am I unhappy with the Epik? I just don't think its up to the task in this large room, initially purchased for a smaller enclosed space. It does surprise me occasionally but i'm noticing it bottom out on some of the bass heavy movies and I don't think it is really all that detailed for music.


As I said earlier, I've read a lot of the threads already, so don't turn this into a flame war.


I'm considering:


HSU ULS mkII dual drive
HSU VTF3 mk5
PSA XS15se duals
PSA S3000i single
Reaction Audio Gamma 15 duals


I will admit i'm leaning towards the HSU subs simply due to the company's long history. PSA having roots w/ SVS also makes me comfortable w/ their stability as well. I'm really a bit concerned w/ RA having been burned by the HOT TICKET Epik subs which were all the rage when I bought my legend. I don't want to be burned again and the long wait times and amp supply issues are a concern to me but those Gamma subs seem to be an intriguing possibility, perhaps some of you can alleviate my concerns?


As far as the HSU VTF3-mk5 goes, will it have the same quality as a sealed sub when in sealed mode or is it a compromise?


Ok, so there it is. Thanks.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I personally think that Jeremy (RA Owner) is a straight shooter and his subs are powered by US made SpeakerPower amps so I wont be concerned about amp reliability issues
Also next week RA subs prices are going up - https://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/blogs/news/39805121-new-pricing
That said, HSU VTF3 mk5 is great value, but do keep in mind HSU doesn't offer free shipping nor free returns...

 

[joegator81]

I personally think that Jeremy (RA Owner) is a straight shooter and his subs are powered by US made SpeakerPower amps so I wont be concerned about amp reliability issues
Also next week RA subs prices are going up - https://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/blogs/news/39805121-new-pricing
That said, HSU VTF3 mk5 is great value, but do keep in mind HSU doesn't offer free shipping nor free returns...

Thanks for the heads up concerning RA's pricing. I'm not sure i'll be able to pull the trigger by then but they are still in the running. Does RA have holiday sales?

How do you feel about the VTF3 in sealed mode? I love the idea of this sub because I could go ported for movies and sealed or ported for music depending on what I prefer. Just curious though, is its sealed mode on par w/ a sub specifically designed to be a sealed sub?

 

[shadyJ]

In that room, I would do ported, and I would go with dual VTF3 mk5s. The sound quality on the VTF3 mk5 is very high, I can attest to that myself. Dual VTF3s will have a much easier time with material below 40 Hz than sealed subs, so less strain and less distortion- the type of strain and distortion you have already heard from your Epik. In a room that large, sealed subs will not benefit from room gain, so the low end would have to be boosted to be even with upper bass, and that is a real strain on sealed subs. You can also configure the VTF3 to get the sound you want, it is not stuck with a fixed sound.

A couple of other things...

Do NOT get the harrison pass labs filters: passive filters change the resistance load of the electricity and can potentially change the character of the speaker sound and efficiency. It's like adding a whole new unexpected component to the speaker's crossover. If you want to keep things simple, get a Hsu high pass filter, it is not expensive or complicated, and it will get the job done without messing up the line impedance. A miniDSP would be able to do that also, and give you a lot more flexibility, although its a bit more involved, but here is a guide to use it for subwoofer crossovers to help you get started.

I also recommend you use a higher than 40 Hz crossover. Yes, your speakers can play down to 40 Hz, but they have nowhere near as easy of a time as a sub. Use 80 Hz, that takes a big strain off the speakers. A good sub like the Hsu's will play 40 Hz much more smoothly than your speakers. This is especially true since you like your sound loud. If you like punchy mid bass, get dual subs and raise the crossover much higher, 120 Hz, although I would want the subs respectively co-located with the speakers to prevent localization.

 

[walter duque]

Belles amp, I like. I had a Belles for over 20 years. One of the best amps in my book. David makes some great stuff.

 

[joegator81]

In that room, I would do ported, and I would go with dual VTF3 mk5s. The sound quality on the VTF3 mk5 is very high, I can attest to that myself. Dual VTF3s will have a much easier time with material below 40 Hz than sealed subs, so less strain and less distortion- the type of strain and distortion you have already heard from your Epik. In a room that large, sealed subs will not benefit from room gain, so the low end would have to be boosted to be even with upper bass, and that is a real strain on sealed subs. You can also configure the VTF3 to get the sound you want, it is not stuck with a fixed sound.

A couple of other things...

Do NOT get the harrison pass labs filters: passive filters change the resistance load of the electricity and can potentially change the character of the speaker sound and efficiency. It's like adding a whole new unexpected component to the speaker's crossover. If you want to keep things simple, get a Hsu high pass filter, it is not expensive or complicated, and it will get the job done without messing up the line impedance. A miniDSP would be able to do that also, and give you a lot more flexibility, although its a bit more involved, but here is a guide to use it for subwoofer crossovers to help you get started.

I also recommend you use a higher than 40 Hz crossover. Yes, your speakers can play down to 40 Hz, but they have nowhere near as easy of a time as a sub. Use 80 Hz, that takes a big strain off the speakers. A good sub like the Hsu's will play 40 Hz much more smoothly than your speakers. This is especially true since you like your sound loud. If you like punchy mid bass, get dual subs and raise the crossover much higher, 120 Hz, although I would want the subs respectively co-located with the speakers to prevent localization.

Thanks Shady, you've given me a lot to think about. I had always wanted rythmiks and sealed subs but going to an open room like I have really limits me. The more I research the more I think the VTF is better for me than the ULS simply due to versatility. I'll have to look into the crossovers some more.

 

[joegator81]

Belles amp, I like. I had a Belles for over 20 years. One of the best amps in my book. David makes some great stuff.

Its got a great sound quality, very neutral but w/ just enough tube character to make tube rolling fun. Its also very versatile w/ the two line outputs and the HT pass through which is an absolute must for me.

 

[Steve81]

Question: if a single sub w/ dual 15's is deemed large enough and strong enough to work in my room would it process the L/R line input separately through each driver as it would with separate subs?

Negative. Mind, most preamps and AVRs with multiple subwoofer outputs are sending identical signals to each sub anyway. Given the frequencies involved, there's not much point in a separate L/R sub feed as your ear can't localize the sounds in any case.

To offer a few cents to the question of a sub, I agree that such a large room might be a better fit for a vented sub versus a sealed sub. However...both RA and PSA offer risk free in home trials, so it doesn't hurt you to try a couple options to see what works best. For best results, I'd also recommend taking measurements to see how the subs interact with your room.

 

[joegator81]

Thanks for the suggestions Steve. Not to good w/ measurements but i will look into that. The reason behind the dual subs w/ L/R input is simply due to reading reviews of multiple subs in two channel analog systems really providing a lot more depth and soundstage presence over one sub because what is there independently in the L and R channel will not be summed into mono. Or am i completely off in that regard?

 

[KEW]

What I don't really hear people talk about is actual sound quality and detail in regards to music.

Because you made this statement, you should definitely include PSA in your trial, the chat feature on their site almost always gets you a live exchange with Tom V., or you can call to talk with him on phone.
Tell Tom your situation, let him play 20 questions with you; and let him choose the sub, based on your needs, to champion PSA against the competition.

I have dual XS15se's and they are tight and musical. They do fine in my room (which is a bit larger than yours because the ceiling is shared with the second floor).
However, I have had sloppier subs in the past with low frequency boom that were more fun for HT!

 

[Steve81]

The reason behind the dual subs w/ L/R input is simply due to reading reviews of multiple subs in two channel analog systems really providing a lot more depth and soundstage presence over one sub because what is there independently in the L and R channel will not be summed into mono. Or am i completely off in that regard?

Multiple subs can definitely have advantages over a single, particularly if you're trying to achieve smooth response over multiple seats. However, there's nothing to really gain with independent L/R subwoofer feeds, hence why they aren't generally offered. For example, your Marantz has a pair of sub outputs, but they aren't "stereo".

 

[herbu]

2) I want a single sub for both my left and right channels when listening only in stereo w/ no receiver processing applied - Question: if a single sub w/ dual 15's is deemed large enough and strong enough to work in my room would it process the L/R line input separately through each driver as it would with separate subs?

Your premise about L/R sub channels is a bit confusing to me. I think when you set your L/R Mains to Small, frequencies below your crossover on either channel are sent to the sub(s). It doesn't matter if you have 1 or 2 subs. And since the sub frequencies are non-directional, it still doesn't matter.

However, peaks and nulls in your room DO matter. From my own experience, it was difficult, (impossible w/ furniture placement restrictions in my room), to get equal bass response in our 2 main listening positions with 1 sub. I only had 3 potential sub locations, and each of them meant one seat got A LOT more bass than the other. It was easily fixed w/ 2 subs.

Even though the first sub was, "large enough and strong enough", to shake the room, it was not able to shake it evenly throughout. Bottom line, I suggest 2 separate subs over 1 sub w/ 2 drivers.

BTW: That's a mighty nice system you have!

 

[joegator81]

Your premise about L/R sub channels is a bit confusing to me. I think when you set your L/R Mains to Small, frequencies below your crossover on either channel are sent to the sub(s). It doesn't matter if you have 1 or 2 subs. And since the sub frequencies are non-directional, it still doesn't matter.

However, peaks and nulls in your room DO matter. From my own experience, it was difficult, (impossible w/ furniture placement restrictions in my room), to get equal bass response in our 2 main listening positions with 1 sub. I only had 3 potential sub locations, and each of them meant one seat got A LOT more bass than the other. It was easily fixed w/ 2 subs.

Even though the first sub was, "large enough and strong enough", to shake the room, it was not able to shake it evenly throughout. Bottom line, I suggest 2 separate subs over 1 sub w/ 2 drivers.

BTW: That's a mighty nice system you have!

Thanks, I really enjoy it but I need to get the low end right.

When I listen to 2 channel I don't use the marantz, I use the belles, hence no way to set the speakers to small. As of now I'm just using one sub with the 2nd left and right outputs sending the same signal that goes to my salks to the sub. I am sold on the two sub idea, just too much evidence to resist. What it seems would be easiest to do is find the best location for each sub in my room for 2 channel first and then use the room correction for movies. Basically, the same signal going to my left speaker will also go to a single sub and the same for the right speaker. Thus, the signal will be true stereo and I can just set the sub crossover to take over as my speakers roll off. The other option is to add an external crossover to choose the point where my speakers hand off to the subs which will give me more control as some have said.

I found a great article about having subs reproducing true 2 channel stereo. It doesn't really address home theater at all. It's premise is that if the recording has a real soundstage with seperated distinct LF in each channel you need two subs in stereo to reproduce accurately.

i get that subs at low frequencies are non directional and maybe I won't notice a huge difference in soundstage from 1 to 2 subs, then again maybe I will , but as you said, two subs will provide a smoother sound and will have to work less with each doing half the work.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated .

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks, I really enjoy it but I need to get the low end right.

When I listen to 2 channel I don't use the marantz, I use the belles, hence no way to set the speakers to small. As of now I'm just using one sub with the 2nd left and right outputs sending the same signal that goes to my salks to the sub. I am sold on the two sub idea, just too much evidence to resist. What it seems would be easiest to do is find the best location for each sub in my room for 2 channel first and then use the room correction for movies. Basically, the same signal going to my left speaker will also go to a single sub and the same for the right speaker. Thus, the signal will be true stereo and I can just set the sub crossover to take over as my speakers roll off. The other option is to add an external crossover to choose the point where my speakers hand off to the subs which will give me more control as some have said.

I found a great article about having subs reproducing true 2 channel stereo. It doesn't really address home theater at all. It's premise is that if the recording has a real soundstage with seperated distinct LF in each channel you need two subs in stereo to reproduce accurately.

i get that subs at low frequencies are non directional and maybe I won't notice a huge difference in soundstage from 1 to 2 subs, then again maybe I will , but as you said, two subs will provide a smoother sound and will have to work less with each doing half the work.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated .

One thing you can't do is use two line outputs to one input. So if you want both the Marantz and the Belle hooked up to the sub simultaneously, you will need either a mixer or subs with two sets of inputs. Some of the Hsu and Rythmik subs have this, and I think the Reaction audio subs have this. Or a mixer like this could handle all of that as well.

 

[theJman]

How do you feel about the VTF3 in sealed mode? I love the idea of this sub because I could go ported for movies and sealed or ported for music depending on what I prefer. Just curious though, is its sealed mode on par w/ a sub specifically designed to be a sealed sub?

Running in sealed mode with the VTF-3 wouldn't be necessary in order to maintain SQ. Not two months ago I posted a review on that very model, and the entire time I had it I ran in one port open mode. At no point did I feel compelled to go sealed because it lacked for nothing. For me, using one port provided the best of both worlds.

 

[joegator81]

Thanks, I've read that review several times now because of how good it was. Kudos. I'm still waiting on more uls reviews to trickle in before I decide but I'm leaning hard towards the vtf3

 

[joegator81]

One thing you can't do is use two line outputs to one input. So if you want both the Marantz and the Belle hooked up to the sub simultaneously, you will need either a mixer or subs with two sets of inputs. Some of the Hsu and Rythmik subs have this, and I think the Reaction audio subs have this. Or a mixer like this could handle all of that as well.

Hey shady, I just change the cables when I switch from movie to music

 

[shadyJ]

For movies, the VTF3 mk5 is bound to have better sound quality vs a ULS-15 mk2. The reason is that the onus is entirely on the driver to reproduce deep frequencies in a sealed subwoofer, but a ported sub gets a big assist with the ports. The ports take a load off the driver, and this does a lot to reduce distortion. The ports can add their own kind of distortion, but that doesn't occur until sound levels well above what a sealed sub would be capable of. Let's take a look at this graph:

Those are SPL levels limited by a certain distortion threshold. You can see the VTF3 mk5 has a lot more clean headroom in deep bass. From 20 to 40 Hz you would need about two ULS-15 mk2s to match the VTF3 mk5. It is true that ported subs can have more group delay than sealed subs but in a Hsu it would be so small as to be inconsequential. The distortion from driver excursion would be much more significant, and here the VTF3 mk5 has a big advantage over the ULS-15 mk2.

 

[theJman]

Thanks, I've read that review several times now because of how good it was. Kudos. I'm still waiting on more uls reviews to trickle in before I decide but I'm leaning hard towards the vtf3

Funny you should mention the ULS; I have one on the way to me as I type this. Dr. Hsu and I were discussing a follow up to the VTF-3 with another HSU product, and the ULS seemed like the logical choice. That one won't be published for a few months though because I have a couple of products already sitting at my house waiting to be evaluated.

With regards to SQ... without hearing it yet I can only speculate, but there's a strong likelihood the ULS would have the advantage over the VTF-3 running with open port(s). There are inherent advantages to acoustic suspension which aid in that regard, similar to how bass reflex has a natural tendency to have greater output. Each alignment has its strengths and weaknesses. However, the advantages might not be audible in this case. Measurable perhaps, but you may not be able to hear them. If so, they have no intrinsic value; if your ears can't detect a difference than there's no point in debating minutia. All that really matters is what can be heard.

 

[herbu]

All that really matters is what can be heard.

That should be the motto of every audiophile, (WAF and non-audio attributes aside). Anything beyond "what can be heard" is useful only for academia, bragging rights or to feed some prejudice.