New Linkwitz Design

Discussion in 'DIY Corner - Tips & Techniques' started by fuzz092888, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    So part of the reason I've been working so hard on my subwoofer build, and eventually my speaker stands is because I'm going taking a good long look at this.

    LX521 Description

    It's the LX521, a new design from legendary speaker designer Siegfried Linkwitz and improves upon his ORION design. The aesthetics certainly won't be for everyone, but it's cheaper than the ORION and by Linkwitz's own admission improves upon the sound. Madisound has the driver kit in stock and they are in the process of bringing a flat pack and fully assembled ASP to the website as well. Last I heard from them, the ASP would be coming in at around $1000, while they didn't say how much the flat pack would cost.

    Personally I think it's one of the more interesting designs out there from a guy who has proven he knows what he's doing. For an estimated cost of ~$3200 + labor and amplification I think this deserves a hard look from the many DIY'ers out there.
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  2. brianedm Audioholic General

    brianedm
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    That's a cool looking speaker! I wish I had the patience and the skills to do DIY work, but I know I'd just get frustrated and give up, haha. Just putting that stand together today was enough DIY for me :p
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  3. Irvrobinson Audioholic Ninja

    Irvrobinson
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    Thanks for pointing this out. Interesting that SL now considers baffle width to be a factor in imaging. In his Orion days he made a point of discounting the importance of a narrow front baffle.

    But, man, that is one ugly speaker. If SL thinks it sounds better than the Orion it must be good, but, damn. It looks like some sort of weird microwave antenna.
  4. jinjuku Moderator

    jinjuku
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    I know he is selling this stuff but I wish he would post the full X-over function so a Mini-DSP or other active cross over could be used.
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  5. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    From Linkwitz FAQ about the LX521

    I have no idea what would be involved in transferring the ASP information to Mini-DSP or another crossover, but seems like Linkwitz thinks it would take a lot to get it right.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2014
  6. AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Slumlord

    AcuDefTechGuy
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    Another Sat + Sub system. ;)

    I approve. :D That LX monitor + some great subs would be fantastic for sure.

    Back then I hooked up my LKWZ Orion3 to my Denon 5308.

    Today I changed & hooked the Orion3 to my Denon AVP-A1HD system to benefit from the seven subwoofers (2 Funk 18.0, 5 RBH SX-1010, XO 120Hz).

    Wow. It's like listening to a brand new system. ;) Utterly emotionally captivating. Huge soundstage plus amazingly articulate musical bass.

    Interestingly, the Orion has the same sensitivity as my KEF 201/2. Thus, I use the same speaker channel trim as the 201/2. :D

    The 802D & TAD 2201 are the most sensitive in my HT room system. Both are about 6dB (speaker trim level) more sensitive than the KEF & Orion. The Salon2 are 2dB more sensitive than the KEF & Orion.

    Anyway, I will be vacillating among my collection for the L/R speakers for both 2.1 music & 5.1 movies (Center & Surrounds will be 201/2). :)
  7. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    The crossover to the woofer section isn't exactly low enough IMHO to warrant calling it a sub/sat system, at least any more than the Phil 3's.

    BTW, Linkwitz has said he prefers the LX51 system over the Orion design and it's a buttload cheaper. Especially since you can use a miniDSP 4X10 instead of the Linkwitz thing and the component costs themselves are much cheaper. Sounds like you should replace the Orions and sell them for a deep discount :p

  8. adk highlander pessimistic optimist

    adk highlander
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    I think you will need an amp to power these speakers. I happen to know where you will find the perfect one.;)
  9. AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Slumlord

    AcuDefTechGuy
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    ATI is the official amp of LKWZ. :)
  10. GranteedEV Audioholic Ninja

    GranteedEV
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    Linkwitz isn't really doing anything new here. John K (music and design) has had the Nao Note and Note 2 for a lot longer
  11. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    What exactly are the differences between the two? I know the Linkwitz design has a narrow horizontal listening area, and the Note I had a narrow vertical listening window, but I only skimmed the Note II writeup.
  12. AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Slumlord

    AcuDefTechGuy
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    I've heard enough speakers to know that it isn't going to sound any better. ;)
    EVERYONE thinks his latest is greatest. Same old dance. :D
  13. GranteedEV Audioholic Ninja

    GranteedEV
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    Both use a 1st order crossover - the LX521 at 1khz (although with a lobing pattern more akin to LR2 crossovers) and the Note 1 at 4khz - so both must have a narrow vertical listening window - the latter moreso in the treble and the former in the midrange.

    The three really won't be all that different, as they fundamentally use the same concept of a narrow baffle and multiple crossovers to achieve a wide-bandwidth dipole-esque response. The little differences are the sort you have to compare yourself to decide between.

    That said, If I were to pick one out of the three I would choose the Nao Note II RS with the best woofer option (Peerless XXLS) in the U-Frame. The Note's been out for three years and I've been wanting one since. Prolly would have made a pair if I had the amps and didn't bite on the Philharmonics.
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  14. fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord

    fuzz092888
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    I thought the Note didn't use 1st order, although I'm probably thinking of the Note II. Why would you go with the XXLS? Is there another reason other than the 3db advantage over the XLS? I believe John said in the Note II RS thread that he didn't feel it warranted the XXLS woofers, and why the U-frame over the N-Frame?

    Curiosity abounds. Maybe a Note II RS build is in order rather than the LX521's (oh boy now I'm starting to sound like a certain someone :eek:)
  15. Irvrobinson Audioholic Ninja

    Irvrobinson
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    That is really weird. The Note 2, at first, looks like a modified Orion design, yet resembles the LX521 too. Or I should say that the LX521 resembles the Note 2, since it appears to have come first. Very weird. Of course, I suppose two-way and three-way box speakers look more alike than the LX521 and the Note 2 do.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  16. GranteedEV Audioholic Ninja

    GranteedEV
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    Any headroom, even "just" 3db, is definitely warranted in OB speakers like this. Even with a U-Frame, the driver is still in free air without the compliance of a box or port to control it. Beyond that there is still a gradient-rolloff associated with the open back, even if it's less problematic than an N-frame. Besides, I'm not rational. :p

    As for U-frame vs N-frame, the benefits are again additional lower bass headroom, and more importantly a loading of the room which minimizes modal interactions - essentially giving you a room response that is minimally coloured. The U-frame is not quite a cardioid, but in the relevant passband it has a more optimal response than the W / H / N frame dipoles.
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  17. GranteedEV Audioholic Ninja

    GranteedEV
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    Once upon a time (2002) the Orion came out. John K created the original NaO (2003) to address some perceived issues with its design (including a rear-firing tweeter). I think it's been implied that NaO stands for Not an Orion :p

    Later Linkwitz updated the Orion with a rear-firing tweeter, and John K also created the Nao II as well, and while they work independantly, they still look to each other with goals of making improvements. One of the issues with the Nao II was that while the baffle width did maximize the drivers' efficiency, they limited the drivers' dipole response in the upper octaves. That's where the Nao Note came in, being a really convoluted 4.5 way -ish design with a minimal baffle, as well as a two-sided-waveguide-loaded tweeter. The LX521 and Note II both really work on the same concept of minimalizing the baffle for engineering reasons - it's not just an aesthetic touch.

    The two are basically two of the foremost pioneers of gradient speakers, although certainly not the only ones. Of course they would be taking cues from each other. Similar to how your revel towers use decreasing driver sizes to maximize the off-axis response, small-baffle dipoles use decreasing baffle size to maximally restrict the off-axis response to a 120 deg pattern. A few people have taken this to an extreme of no-baffle-at-all by suspending drivers in midair with very tightly tensioned cables. So it's greatly related to performance, although there's definitely some aesthetic aspect to it.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
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