New Home Theatre - Need a Sub

[Sounder]

Hello everyone. I am just finishing setting up a home theatre and could really use some solid advice regarding a subwoofer to match up with my system. A few specs to help.

1. Room size is approximately 20x14x9 or roughly 2500 cubic feet.
2. Room is prewired for 7.1 surround
3. Marantz SR6008 Receiver
4. B&W 685 Bookshelf Speakers
5. B&W HTM62 Center Channel Speaker
6. Harmon Kardon satellite speakers (skimped a little here to put more money into the sub)

I am more interested in watching movies so would prefer a sub focused more on handling the sounds of movie tracks versus music. I have read quite a number of subwoofer reviews and to be honest my head is spinning a bit with all of the available subwoofer options (who knew there were so many)! I am looking for good value, don't want to overpay just for a name, but am willing to spend a bit (up to $1,500 or so and perhaps a tad more) to get a quality sub that MATCHES WELL with my B&W speakers and room size.

Calling on the experts here to help guide me toward some great subwoofer options to consider. If there is any other info that will help with advice please ask and I will do my best to provide. Thanks so much in advance for the help.

 

[rojo]

For that budget you could get a pair of ported svs subs to put in opposing corners of your room. If you dig gadgets, you might also consider a minidsp to balance and eq them since your Marantz doesn't offer SubEQ.

If you prefer a single sub, the svs pb12+ would more than satisfy I'm sure, and your Marantz' Audyssey should blend it seamlessly with your bookshelfs (with maybe a little experimenting of the crossover points).

Hsu Research also has some excellent offerings you might consider.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[fuzz092888]

For single subs, these are all great options. High output, high quality, with plenty of headroom for all those big explosions.

Rythmik Audio • 15" servo subwoofer F25

Rythmik Audio • 15" servo subwoofer FV15HP

SVS PB13-Ultra - 1000 Watt DSP Controlled, 13.5" Ported Subwoofer With Variable Tuning

POWER SOUND AUDIO — XV30f

SW12ULT-DFSub

http://www.sourcespeaker.com/-_HVS_subwoofers_7-27-09.doc.pdf

You could also do duals, which might help you even out the frequency response in room a little. However, if you really love movies and movie soundtracks I think a big high quality sub is the way to go. That way, if you ever want to do multiples in the future you've got about as solid a foundation to do so as possible. If you don't plan on doing upgrades anytime in the near to moderate future, duals might be the way to go, but I don't think you can go wrong with one monster sub for at least the present.

 

[Aundudel]

+1 for the Rythmik FV15HP. You won't be disappointed

 

[jp_over]

+1 Rythmik!

 

[Sounder]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I have read a few reviews for the subs listed above and I have a few more questions/clarifications.
1. I am going to start with one sub and will likely add a second at some point in the future, unless someone can convince me of a two sub setup in my price range. I think I like Fuzz's adivce to start with a solid single sub and add another later.
2. I would like my bass to sound immersive and realistic, not just boomy and room shaking. Even though I will be mostly watching movies there is obviously music in movies and I want to be sure the sub I select can handle soundtracks as well as special effects.
3. Even though I have a top end budget of around $1,500 or so it doesn't mean I want to spend this much if a lower price sub is available that will fill the bill for my room size and listenign preference. I guess what I am asking is how MUCH better is an $800 sub versus a $1,500 option?
4. In reading some of the reviews I am finding a LOT of technical data, graphs and such, that I really don't understand when trying to make a comparison. What are the key things I should be looking at in the technical test spec data and qualitatively how much difference is there in these specs from sub to sub?

I appreciate the feedback so far and am not going to make a hasty purchase decision since this is a sub I plan to keep for a long time. I am just having some trouble understanding and making a comparative decision when reading various sub reviews. Again thanks so much for any advice.

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I have read a few reviews for the subs listed above and I have a few more questions/clarifications.
1. I am going to start with one sub and will likely add a second at some point in the future, unless someone can convince me of a two sub setup in my price range. I think I like Fuzz's adivce to start with a solid single sub and add another later.

If you're passionate about your HT experience, I wouldn't start with lesser subs than what was listed, or something equivalent to what was listed.

2. I would like my bass to sound immersive and realistic, not just boomy and room shaking. Even though I will be mostly watching movies there is obviously music in movies and I want to be sure the sub I select can handle soundtracks as well as special effects.

None of these subs will provide boomy sound. They're all low distortion, accurate subs. I don't think anyone here would recommend a boomy sub.

3. Even though I have a top end budget of around $1,500 or so it doesn't mean I want to spend this much if a lower price sub is available that will fill the bill for my room size and listenign preference. I guess what I am asking is how MUCH better is an $800 sub versus a $1,500 option?

For that $800 budget you're probably looking at mostly subs with 12" drivers. The thing about stepping up to a 15" driver or the big SVS is that they'll require less power to move more air, which equates to better room pressurization. This is also important since you'll be running a single sub. The other big difference is that the higher quality subs will be able to play louder, deeper and cleaner than their lower priced brethren. They are better and the data on them shows it. However, whether that doubling of price is worth what you're getting is totally subjective and up to you. I think the biggest factor is if you plan to upgrade later on. If not, then duals is the way to go with two lower priced subs. If you do, then you'll spend less money in the long run by buying a better sub first and then adding another to that.

4. In reading some of the reviews I am finding a LOT of technical data, graphs and such, that I really don't understand when trying to make a comparison. What are the key things I should be looking at in the technical test spec data and qualitatively how much difference is there in these specs from sub to sub?

You should look for flat frequency response, how deep it stays flat (how low in hz it will go before dropping off.), low distortion and at what point distortion starts to rise. If they have other graphs those can be explained as well.

The thing to remember is that the bass frequencies are most affected by the room and placement within that room. So if you start with something lesser, it will make it that much more difficult to get it dialed in once it's in the room.

As for differences from sub to sub. It really just depends. Comparing different alignments to each other can be difficult because they have different response characteristics. However, distortion and frequency response are two basic things that can be compared. As you go for higher quality subs distortion gets lower and lower and that equates to that cleaner, less boomy sound you're looking for.

I appreciate the feedback so far and am not going to make a hasty purchase decision since this is a sub I plan to keep for a long time. I am just having some trouble understanding and making a comparative decision when reading various sub reviews. Again thanks so much for any advice.

You can't go wrong with that kind of budget and if you follow the recommendations and ask questions. So there's a good starting point.

 

[ahblaza]

I would go with one of these for now, perfect for your room.
POWER SOUND AUDIO — XS30 Home Audio Subwoofer
Also as Fuzz pointed out the XV30 is monster, if you want excellent output and smooth base go for two of the XV15s, one in each corner and never look back.
POWER SOUND AUDIO — XV15 Home Audio Subwoofer
None of the subs mentioned will be boomy or muddy, all the reco's are excellent choices, as for me I can't recommend PSA products enough, 5 year bumper to bumper warranty and made in the USA, plus I've heard them all, PSAs that is
Cheers Jeff

 

[Bear123]

As mention by several already, I highly recommend dual subs now or as an upgrade option in the near future. My advice, start with the end in mind. When its all said and done, would you rather end up with dual Rythmik FV15HP's, or will you be happy if you start off now with dual XV15's or dual PB2000's? The fact is, the Rythmik is roughly double the output of either of these subs.

Long term, my suggestion would be the following:
1)Start with a Rythmik FV15HP, and add a second when you can.
2)Start with a Hsu VTF15-H now, add a second when you can.
3)Go duals now with either a PSA XV15, PB2000, or Hsu VTF3.4

 

[Steve81]

I would go with one of these for now, perfect for your room.
POWER SOUND AUDIO — XS30 Home Audio Subwoofer

Ditto. The size of your listening space (assuming its not open to other areas) should make it suitable for a sealed subwoofer. Could be worth discussing the benefits vs the XV15 and XV30 with Tom over at PSA. Short version: huge output from 40Hz on up, and potential for useful extension well below the 20Hz mark in room.

 

[Sounder]

Thanks all for the great feedback and recs....lots of things for me to look into and review. A couple other quick questions...

1. Is there a frequency "sweet spot" range that most subs operate in that I should be considering when looking at test data or should I just be looking at the sub with the best low frequency performance?
2. Of the subs mentioned so far which have the best sound management tools/features? Since my recevier does not have SubEq options is this something I should also be considering for on board options or are there other tools to help with this?
3. Given my B&W speakers and their rated range is there a sub listed that matches better with them?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

.... if you start off now with dual XV15's or dual PB2000's? The fact is, the Rythmik is roughly double the output of either of these subs.

Sorry, but I do have a problem with this statement :
If you check the output measurements on Josh's site: XV15 shows excellent basic and full range responses, only lagging behind in maximum long term test
FV15HP is also doing better THD wise on 105db sweep - All things together don't tell me that FV15HP has anywhere near "double" of output of XV15 at all.
Yes, FV15HP has better noise/ratio at very high output and less thermal compression, but these are not MAJOR issues. (more like first world problems )

Long term, my suggestion would be the following:
1)Start with a Rythmik FV15HP, and add a second when you can.
2)Start with a Hsu VTF15-H now, add a second when you can.
3)Go duals now with either a PSA XV15, PB2000, or Hsu VTF3.4

One thing to keep in mind is size of some of these subs XV is not small (22” x 17” x 23”), but it drafts by VTF-15H (26" H x 18" W x 27 3⁄4" D)

and other thing most companies will offer good deals for dual subs (beyond the prices on web sites if contacted directly)

 

[Tom V.]

Sorry, but I do have a problem with this statement :
If you check the output measurements on Josh's site: XV15 shows excellent basic and full range responses, only lagging behind in maximum long term test
FV15HP is also doing better THD wise on 105db sweep - All things together don't tell me that FV15HP has anywhere near "double" of output of XV15 at all.
Yes, FV15HP has better noise/ratio at very high output and less thermal compression, but these are not MAJOR issues. (more like first world problems )



One thing to keep in mind is size of some of these subs XV is not small (22” x 17” x 23”), but it drafts by VTF-15H (26" H x 18" W x 27 3⁄4" D)

and other thing most companies will offer good deals for dual subs (beyond the prices on web sites if contacted directly)

It may be worth noting that for a truly "apples apples" comparison in the CEA-2010 output metric there should be a bit of scaling down since the XV15 driver's acoustical "center" was much further from the microphone than a "front" firing sub like the f15. This is a graph showing the drop in SPL when the only variable is the driver facing 90 degrees away from the mic. Data-Bass[pp_gal]/3/ (4th graph down)

If we would have designed the XV15 as a "front firing" sub (with port on same baffle as driver) it would have scored 1.5-2.0dB higher over most of the operating bandwidth(from about 30-100hz) but the "in room" performance would be the same as it is now. This is one of the issues I'm sure future CEA-2010 revisions will consider so some products do not have their performance artificially handicapped simply because of the driver orientation.

Considering the above, the XV15 will still be a couple dB(ish) behind the f15hp, no where near being "doubled" though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[shadyJ]

Sorry, but I do have a problem with this statement :
If you check the output measurements on Josh's site: XV15 shows excellent basic and full range responses, only lagging behind in maximum long term test
FV15HP is also doing better THD wise on 105db sweep - All things together don't tell me that FV15HP has anywhere near "double" of output of XV15 at all.
Yes, FV15HP has better noise/ratio at very high output and less thermal compression, but these are not MAJOR issues. (more like first world problems )

Bear is basically correct, the FV15HP is roughly doubling of an XV15. Perhaps not at every frequency, but some frequencies the FV15HP is a bit more than doubled performance and some a bit less, but the overall picture is a 6dB lead in performance, a doubling in amplitude. And that is only CEA output measurements. When you add in superior compression, distortion, and long term output output, the FV15HP is arguably more than doubling the XV15 performance.

 

[shadyJ]

It may be worth noting that for a truly "apples apples" comparison in the CEA-2010 output metric there should be a bit of scaling down since the XV15 driver's acoustical "center" was much further from the microphone than a "front" firing sub like the f15. This is a graph showing the drop in SPL when the only variable is the driver facing 90 degrees away from the mic. Data-Bass[pp_gal]/3/ (4th graph down)

If we would have designed the XV15 as a "front firing" sub (with port on same baffle as driver) it would have scored 1.5 to 2.5dB higher over most of the operating bandwidth(from about 30-100hz) but the "in room" performance would be the same as it is now. This is one of the issues I'm sure future CEA-2010 revisions will consider so some products do not have their performance artificially handicapped simply because of the driver orientation.

Considering the above, the XV15 will still be a couple dB(ish) behind the f15hp, no where near being "doubled" though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Your own measurements undermine your assertion here. You do not fully gain that extra output because the port is facing the microphone on your subwoofer. As can be seen, any extra output gained by having the XV15 cone face the mic is minor.

 

[ahblaza]

DON'T GET INVOLVED HERE TOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks BSA for your input, appreciate it, the OP is probably gone now

 

[Steve81]

Re: the FV15HP vs the XV15, I'll see if I can make it simple:

Subwoofer	PSA XV15	Rythmik FV15HP
	#'s from PSA Website	#'s from DB, Native Tune
CEA 2010 - 16Hz	98.1dB (from DB)	102.1dB
20Hz-32Hz Avg	116.6dB	122.5dB
40-63Hz Avg	125.1dB	128.1dB
20-63Hz Avg	121.8dB	125.8dB
Output Ratio	1	1.6

<tbody>
</tbody>

Cheers

 

[fuzz092888]

Re: the FV15HP vs the XV15, I'll see if I can make it simple:

Subwoofer	PSA XV15	Rythmik FV15HP
	#'s from PSA Website	#'s from DB, Native Tune
CEA 2010 - 16Hz	98.1dB (from DB)	102.1dB
20Hz-32Hz Avg	116.6dB	122.5dB
40-63Hz Avg	125.1dB	128.1dB
20-63Hz Avg	121.8dB	125.8dB
Output Ratio	1	1.6

<tbody>
</tbody>

Cheers

Do one for distortion! Do one for distortion!







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[Steve81]

Do one for distortion! Do one for distortion!<style id="pageBrightnessCustomCSS">body{zoom:150%;}</style>

Ultimately, as Tom would probably point out, CEA takes THD into account (with a weighting factor to account for the fact that higher order harmonics are less desirable); there may be some mechanical noise that's missed, though nothing of great importance is noted by Josh in either case (the FV15HP does run into problems with vent noise with one port plugged). However, with respect to power compression, Rythmik's servo does offer an advantage in terms of compensating for thermal compression. The FV15HP also offers some tuning features and a channel of PEQ which may be of use to a prospective buyer.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Ultimately, as Tom would probably point out, CEA takes THD into account (with a weighting factor to account for the fact that higher order harmonics are less desirable); there may be some mechanical noise that's missed, though nothing of great importance is noted by Josh in either case (the FV15HP does run into problems with vent noise with one port plugged). However, with respect to power compression, Rythmik's servo does offer an advantage in terms of compensating for thermal compression. The FV15HP also offers some tuning features and a channel of PEQ which may be of use to a prospective buyer.

In my own defense - I was regarding to output, not CEA 2010 "clean output" ... Adjusted for THD, bear's claim of "double" output might have some claim
In the end we are comparing apples and oranges. Like I said before - it's all bunch of first world problems.

All the subs mentioned in this thread are VERY capable and in the end OP's $1500 just sub budget is way beyond most of AH visitors and will be very rewarding result if selected any of these subs..

One thing to remember - With only one sub only getting flat bass in the room is not impossible, but quite the challenge.
With 2-3 sealed subs getting even and accurate bass is much lesser of the task (given the subs are capable from the get-go) and EQ'd properly. With 3 subs sub locations becomes much less critical (according to doc Geddes)