R

roSco_train

Enthusiast
My brother is building a new home here in Minnesota. His builder has given him permision to do all of his low voltage wiring as long as it is up to code. I have read BMXTRIX article on home wiring but have some additional questions.

Too briefly describe what he wants in his house, he wants ceiling speakers so music can be played throughout his home,sat/cable tv in most rooms, phone is several rooms, high speed internet in several rooms.

Is there a substantial difference in brands of cables?

Is there too much interference if cable is run along with the electrical wiring? How about other A/V cables?

Where is a good place to buy the cable?

Should there be a special control room where all the wire goes, or is it ok to route everything to where his main reciever will be.

What is a good reciever to manage several zones loke he wants?

He is doing this himself to obviously save money, but he is willing to spend 1000 on the wiring, the reciever is a seperate unknown budget at this point.

Thanks to whoever helps, any information would be great!
Chris
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
roSco_train said:
Is there too much interference if cable is run along with the electrical wiring? How about other A/V cables?

Where is a good place to buy the cable?
Well I can answer these 2 questions quickly.

Speaker and data cables should not be run along side power cables, if they have to cross, then it should be at a 90 degree angle. To keep emi-rfi singnals down to minimum. If they do cross, it would be a good idea to use ferrites.

The other question, where to buy. I have found no other place cheaper for cl3 rated 10,12,14awg wire. The 14 gauge is like 0.10 a foot for cl3 Beldin twisted wire. The other gauges are very close to this price (12awg is something like 0.17 and the 10 gauge I just bought is 0.20) it is also high stranded not solid core. YOU WILL NOT FIND THIS CHEAPER, For this quality....

Heres the link for the wire. (Look at Beldin Bulk Wire pages 5-6-7)
The link is for Beldin 10 gauge CL3 Twisted pvc outer jacket and at 0.24 a foot.
http://www.westlake-electronic.com/cgi-bin/store.php?search=yes&detail=yes&category=CAB&SUBCAT=BEL-&hits=120&item_no=BEL-13242

Here is the 12 gauge cl3 at 0.17 a foot (but check stock amount-sometimes they have thousands of feet-sometimes their out)
http://www.westlake-electronic.com/cgi-bin/store.php?search=yes&detail=yes&category=CAB&SUBCAT=BEL-&hits=150&item_no=BEL-13247

Hope these 2 helped....
 
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jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
That Belden wire is fairly coarse and stiff though. BMXTRIX would recommend getting Monster Cable off Ebay for cheap. Yes, it supports and evil company, but according to him, nothing installs easier. I'd PM him and ask questions. He's the one to talk to.
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
jaxvon said:
That Belden wire is fairly coarse and stiff though. BMXTRIX would recommend getting Monster Cable off Ebay for cheap. Yes, it supports and evil company, but according to him, nothing installs easier. I'd PM him and ask questions. He's the one to talk to.
I've got the 12 and 14 gauge here now. And I can wrap it around my wrist. So I feel its flexable enough....IMO
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
I'm sorry, I just checked. The wire is flexable enough to wrap around my finger (did 6 loops and used the 12awg)
The pvc jacket is soft enough for flexability.
I could take a picture if needed....
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
Heres pics of the 12 gauge.....
No force was used to curl it around my finger..
And the 14 gauge flexes easier...
 

Attachments

jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Step 1:Take foot in hand.
Step 2:Insert foot into mouth

You made your point. I just remember another person that ordered some Belden wire (I think it was 10ga) saying it was super coarse.
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
My brother is building a new home here in Minnesota. His builder has given him permision to do all of his low voltage wiring as long as it is up to code
Hello
You may want to check the UEC for that state for LV wire If it goes in the walls It most likely needs to be fire rated. I have had very poor results with
many budget brands of in- wall wire including Monster Not because it was bad wire or because it was not flexible.

When pulling longs runs through mutable
knock outs or dragging the wire over obstacles the covers tear and expose the wire. I have had pretty good luck with Genesis Audacious wire,another one is Standard wire, not so easy to strip but the cover is rugged and durable.

The use of knock out sleeves and wire lube will help if you have large trucks trough one knock out It will prevent burning.

Home running 16-4 and doubling up the conductors is cheap insurance on multi room systems If one conductor fails there is a back up in place
 
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R

roSco_train

Enthusiast
hey thanks a lot, those prices are unbelievable, i think I will go brian and tell my brother to go with the beldin wire.

On a side note jaxvon said "Yes, it supports and evil company," why is monster an evil company, I have been led to believe they are one of the best.

Thanks again guys, I only wish I knew as much as you do
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Monster has some evil marketing tactics, suing small small companies that use the name "Monster" in their products or company name, even if they have NOTHING to do with cabling. That, and they also overcharge like hell for their products. That's not to say they put out poor quality stuff, they don't, but you pay out the arse for the "MONSTER" logo on the box.

They also make places like Radio Shack direct you to the Monster section, even before recommending their own Radio Shack cables. So yeah. Greedy, very aggressive and sometimes downright evil marketing.
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
jaxvon is completely right here. But may have left out a small detail.
IMO and I'm sure most will agree, 24K plated is 24K plated whether you buy it from Monster or another company.
99.9%of Copper wire is 99.9 if you buy it from Monster or another company.

There are companies out there that will sell you one cable of quality consisting of 10 foot cable for 10,000.00 (This is not a joke) Then again you could make yourself a 10 foot cable with 10 gauge wire and with 24K plated banana plugs for (lets even say a high range) 35.00

Now the question is, would you hear a difference?
I THINK NOT!!!
OH, if you had that kind of money, and the cable looked good to you, sure it sounds better. (But I believe the person hearing this, would have been wise to buy some grass and then tell me he hears a difference)
At least I would have known he was stoned.

Actually if you look at most of monster cable's - cables. They are not above 12gauge, and most are 14 or lower.

Now I know, for short runs that 14 or 16 will do just fine. And that the difference is unaudible. But By chance I went with 12gauge for all surrounds. And 10gauge for the front & center. Why, well the price of all my fronts put together are 1/10 cheaper then Monster Cable of 14gauge. And I like to fill the banana plugs to their fullest (they are made for 10awg). Next I will buy speaker wire pants. (Obviously only for looks)
1 of my cables 10 foot long with 10 gauge, with 24K plated Locking Banana Plugs, With Pants, And Custom fitted length. Cost about 15.00 a cable. (and thats a high range-I could do the actual math if needed)

Same cable from a Labeled brand "Monster Cable" would cost 50-75.00+

Beleive it or not I actually do have some Monster cables laying around, and as stated above most are 14awg or less, the ones I have here are puny compared to my new cables.

Do they sound different with the Monsters, NO!
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Through the list of questions as best as I currently understand them and feel.

Some of this is opinion - some is my best guess. I program Crestron for a living, I do not install.

1. Cables are cables - I like Monster and won't use anything else. It isn't that other cables aren't flexible, it is that they aren't loose. The photo above is a perfect example as the Monster CL3 (fire rated/in-wall) won't hold it's shape like that after your remove your finger. It is downright floppy. The jacket is not PVC, but is rubber, which makes it pull very easily and increases flexibility for easier cable pulls. Is it 'better'? I think what I described makes it better for pulling through walls. The SOUND QUALITY is not different at all. I used about 2,000 feet of it in my home.

1a. For phone and data, you can pick up any Cat5e cable at your local Home Depot. It works fine. About 60 bucks for 500 feet I believe. You can use Cat5e for both phone and computer jacks... Heck, my wiring for both jacks is identical so I can interchange them if I need an extra phone or computer outlet.

2. The National Electrical Code (NEC) requires that low voltage be a certain distance away from high voltage. You run it down opposite studs or opposite sides of studs, you may not pull low voltage and high voltage through the same holes you cut in a stud. When they cross it should be at a 90 degree angle. Low voltage wiring must typically be fire rated. I beleive that is a CL2 or CL3 rating at least.

3. I bought my speaker cable (Monster) on eBay as that offerred me the best price. I used 16/4 and 16/2 for everything. There is 14/4 available as well. If you go elsewhere, buy from wherever is the least expensive. Really, not much warranty is necessary on your cable the way it is on electronics.

4. The wire should go where you have good access. I brought it all back to a central point with phone, data, audio, and video. But, I distribute my audio to my family room (main surround zone) and my home from there. Most people do not do this, so you have to consider the needs. Most people pull data and phone to one location and audio/video to another. It is rare that the two are close like they are in my setup. Bottom line is that it depends on your setup.

5. There are lots of good receivers, but the real question is this: How many zones are there? A nice entry level setup may use all 3 zones on a decent receiver (Yammie 2500/Denon 3805) which gives a breakdown like this...
Zone 1 - Main surround zone (5.1 audio)
Zone 2 - Secondary main audio zone with it's own ability to choose a source (uses 2 extra amp channels on receiver - may include sending composite video to room!
Zone 3 - Additional rooms (outside, kitchen, living room, etc.) with an outboard amp and volume controls within those specific rooms.

My setup allows for up to 18 separate zones, of which I'm currently using 10. But, mine comes with a premium price tag. ;)

6. If he can do all the wiring himself and not higher anyone, $1,000.00 is a huge budget! 2,000 feet of CAT-5 may run 200 bucks. 2,000 feet of Monster Cable may run 500 bucks. That leaves money over for IR repeaters or volume controls in the rooms. eBay is your friend on some of this stuff.

7. Careful planning is required and CONDUIT IS A MUST!!! No, it isn't, but it is easy to run some from a 'control room' to your attic or several other locations. I used about 250 feet of conduit. I think my total prewire cost (I had to pay for most of the work) ran about $5,000.00. Doing it myself entirely probably would have been about $1,200.00

More info! More info!
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
Excellent post BMXTRIX. Thank you very much, very wise and to the point.

He is correct on saying that the Beldin wire will hold some of its shape when it is coiled in that manner, but.... I wondered about this after taking those pictures and waited to see if it would go back to normal on its own.

And for the most part it did. But it is not "loose". And with a slight tug its totally back to straight.

So if you can pick up Monster Cable for a good price, and would like everyone to know its all MC. Then by all means buy it. It will certainly not be bad quality.

Once again Great post BMXTRIX. Thanks for the info.....
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
roSco_train said:
Thanks to whoever helps, any information would be great!
Chris
Oh BTW, I forgot to say, thats a great handle. I am assuming you like The Dukes Of Hazzard. With Rosco P Coe Train. Dew Dew.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
CAT 5 is super cheap. You should be able to get 2000ft for barely over $100. Check it out at Newegg. It costs $55 shipped for a 1000ft roll of the stuff. Great deal.
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
Cat 5 Beldin at Westlake is 2000 ft for 0.06 a ft. = 120 and shipping is exactly 33.00 (for 2000 ft)

So either way he can not go wrong.

But if you buy the speaker wire from them as well, then you would save on shipping.

(No I am not a rep for them, just thought they have unheard of prices for the quality that I have received)
 
R

roSco_train

Enthusiast
Hey what reciever is it that lets you have so many zones, is there one that you know of that gives you around 8?

Does anybody know what a denon 2805 can do as far as zones? I know that there is the speaker A b zones, and there is a "zone 2," but I am using zone 2 as my 7.1, does that mean I am SOL when it comes to 3 zones?

Thanks Again

Chris

BTW I am only 18, when I was little my older brother always called be rosco, I never actualy found out what it was until about a year ago, I thought it was so funny, I use that title for everything now.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Well, you need some basics about audio & such for some of what you are running through your head.

1. To have a zone of audio you need an audio source, a way to adjust volume, and an amplifier hooked up to some speakers.

2. To have muliple sources available, you need a switcher that can switch those sources.

3. If you want multiple rooms with the SAME source, then you can just use something simple, like a speaker selector.

4. If you want multiple rooms with different shared sources, then you need some sort of matrix switcher.

5. Volume controls are traditionally knobs located in each room of the home. This is not one of the best ways to control volume and retain audio quality though.

6. Adjusting audio volume prior to the amplifier through use of a pre-amp is a much better way to control audio level.

7. A surround receiver is typically designed first and formost to provide surround audio to a single room of your home. They have evolved to include 2 and sometimes 3 (or even 4) rooms total. Depending on the specific receiver, you may find that there is built in amplification for second and third zones, or you may need to buy an external amplifier to power the speakers in the second and third zones.

8. Buying an external amplifier for additional rooms and speakers is typically a wise decision.

9. With DISTRIBUTED AUDIO - You have a number of options, which I have posted on in detail before, but will touch on again.

a. Plug a single CD player into a amplifier then run it out to impedence matching volume controls. Very simple, but when the amp and CD player is on, audio is going to all the rooms hooked up to the CD player. Volume is adjusted individually in each room.

b. MOST COMMON: Use the second zone of a receiver to switch multiple sources (tape, tuner, cd, xm, etc.) and then hook the output into an good amplifier, then to an impedence matching speaker selector. From there, the signal goes to volume controls in each room.

c. Better: Use a mid-level distributed audio system like those from Niles or Sonance which allow you to send up to 6 sources to 6 different rooms in your home. Usually you can buy 2 units and add 6 more rooms (12 total). Most of these have keypads in each room that allow for independent source selection from the room in use. So, when the study is on CD, the master bath can be listening to the radio. These setups cost a fair bit more, but offer a much higher level of flexibility for audio.

d. Top Shelf: Crestron, AMX, Control 4 (?) - These products allow for you to pick and choose which components you want and which amplifiers you want. Crestron (as this is what I actually know) offers a 8 source to 8 separate zones pre-amp that controls volume for up to 8 rooms. It also allows daisy chaining of stereo audio for up to a total of 32 separate zones (4 units). Keypads, or touchpanels in each room control audio. This system allows higher functionality though - including XM station information on touchpanels, auto startup/shutdown of components, control of other devices (TV, HVAC, motorized drapes, security, lighting, etc.) depending on what level of sophistication the home is at. I believe with Myer-Emco we had a 8 room 3 source package that ran about $20,000.00 fully installed (new contruction). Audio sources are shared (up to 8 sources), but a separate amplifier is needed for each room. Something like a Sonance 1230 amp or a Rotel RMB-1048 works well.

10. Things like IR repeaters can be added to any room by having an extra piece of CAT-5 somewhere (usually the wall where the volume control is) in the wall. A IR repeater will allow you to change a source, or control the CD player from the room with the IR repeater in it. So, if you are on the other side of your home and want to switch from the tuner to the CD, then want song 4, you can do it all with the remote instead of walking to the other side of your home to start it up.

Pricing that can't be avoided are the speakers in each room that are needed and you will likely need at least one external amp to run things plus a minimum of one volume control per room. In an 8 zone setup, expect no less than about $250.00 per room. You can work it a little less, but you'd be going with very inexpensive speakers.

In comparison, my setup runs about (MSRP) $1,200.00 per room. For a pair of decent speakers, channel of the Crestron pre-amp, amplification, and keypad in room. It does not include wiring, sources, or Crestron control processor or programming labor.

FYI:
http://www.sonance.com/subs/products.php?category_id=33&option=get_category&thread_one_cat_id=29&thread_one_cat_name=Electronics&thread_two_cat_id=&thread_two_cat_name=

http://www.crestron.com/products/show_products.asp?type=residential&cat=1012
 
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