New AVS System in open plan apartment

M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Nice, perhaps we can all follow that lead and avoid work! If you're going to have a bookshelf or monitor on a stand, you may also consider having it in a cabinet. That way, it will be less prone to being hit, run into or someone putting their glass on top of it. While the cabinet may bring other audio issues, it may be cleaner in the long run.
Cabinets are really tough. Wall mounts are great though.

Speakers like Revels (this wasn't intended to be a plug and full disclosure that I own Revels) have compensation switches on the back to adjust the speaker for stand or flush mount in a cabinet and adjust the speaker response accordingly.
Yeah, the dynaudios do also. Otherwise same thing can be done using the pre-processor.

And plug away, Revel's are great. Like I said, the speaker thing everyone will have an opinion.

Thanks for the information you have provided. Can you please explain to me what is the difference between your option 1 and the below option?View attachment 11739
It's upside down? ;) Just kidding. It's certainly another option. Do you have any photos of the space?



What are the main differences between active and passive (Pros and cons) and how do these fit in my environment - are there any benefits?
Big question, so, understand that I'm generalizing a bit but I'm happy to get into more specifics upon request.

Active vs Passive
Active 'monitors' (speakers) means that they have internal amplification*. To generalize (someone will correct me lol): Those listed have amplifiers which are optimized for the speakers themselves, protection may be built into the amplifier/servo's, great dampening which helps clarity (try pressing on the driver of a good active monitor, it will literally fight back), etc. Active speakers are also more efficient, so you'll notice the wattage of these is lower than recommended for a passive varient, that's because they don't have crossover losses (which can be 20-30%).

*Technically, a speaker might still have an outboard amplifier and be considered 'active.' For example, there are some large Genelec inwalls I've used for installations which have small external rack mounted amps with a high frequency out and low frequency out. But for the most part they are built it, especially in near field.

Biggest downside is you have to run power to them. For some, that simply prevents using them, or perhaps limits them only to the front.

For large rooms there are more downsides (price gets astronomical, for one)'

Fitting your Environment
-Nearfield monitors are designed mainly for studio use, where someone is pretty close 1-2.5m. Some home speakers require some distance to sound good due to the crossover (but not all).
-This let's you sit closer, which means your volume can be lower.
-They generally have narrower dispersion, causing less reflections off sidewalls and mixing boards (or floors and ceilings in your case).
-All the options I listed are from brands (Genelec, Dynaudio, Bag End) who believe in time-coherency. I'm a strong believer in the significance of this...here is a tid bit from bag end about it:

The PM6 Time-Aligned™ loudspeaker system designed for critical nearfield studio monitoring applications. Designed as a Nearfield Monitor™ the PM-6 offers accurate time and frequency information within the near field listening area. Despite its small size it has high acoustic output and unsurpassed clarity and resolution of detail. Attachment points are provided for Bag End mounting bracket (BRKT-1) and other popular mounting hardware. Time-Align® assures that the fundamental and overtones of a complex, transient, acoustical signal are presented to the listener in the same relationship as the electrical signal at the input terminals of the loudspeaker. The conventional loudspeaker spreads out the sound in time: when a rapid series of transients occur the results are blurring and lost detail. With Time-Align®, a transient is presented as a tight package of energy, with the same time relationships as the natural sound. This means that a rapid series of transients will be heard clearly. True Time-Alignment™ requires much more than just physically lining up the loudspeaker components. It requires consideration of the driver placement, driver delay and adjustment of the crossover delay parameters. This achieves the precise simultaneous acoustical arrival time.


Also for option 1 (yours or mine) can you please advise where should the treatments be placed?

Thanks
Yep! Gotta do a few things, this afternoon I'll take a peek at some acoustical treatment options.
 
R

russcami123

Enthusiast
It's certainly another option. Do you have any photos of the space?
I will forward you some photos tomorrow because I won't be there this afternoon. If possible I would take that option and ideally move the sofa a bit to the back so that it is not in the 'middle' of the room. In this way I would have a clear path to move from the kitchen to the corridor. However, I can work around this issue by having 2 single seaters which can be moved around the space as needed.

Another issue, is that most brands you have listed are not available in Malta (EU), hence my biggest challenge is finding similar brands which actually arrive to the island.
I know I can buy them online, however I wish to leave this option as a last resort. Such websites include:
-http://audiomalta.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=39&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64
-http://www.tiptopsports.com/index.php?mact=ElectronicsManager,cntnt01,default,0&cntnt01categoryid=4&cntnt01returnid=75&cntnt01productid=90&cntnt01page=5&cntnt01returnid=75&hl=en_GB
-http://www.doneo.com.mt/SubCategories.aspx?mainid=4&catID=50
-http://www.astral.com.mt/web/category/speakers

Can you please look at these vendors and advise whether any brands and models do make a right fit?

Thanks
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
I will forward you some photos tomorrow because I won't be there this afternoon. If possible I would take that option and ideally move the sofa a bit to the back so that it is not in the 'middle' of the room. In this way I would have a clear path to move from the kitchen to the corridor. However, I can work around this issue by having 2 single seaters which can be moved around the space as needed.

Another issue, is that most brands you have listed are not available in Malta (EU), hence my biggest challenge is finding similar brands which actually arrive to the island.
I know I can buy them online, however I wish to leave this option as a last resort. Such websites include:
-http://audiomalta.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=39&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64
-http://www.tiptopsports.com/index.php?mact=ElectronicsManager,cntnt01,default,0&cntnt01categoryid=4&cntnt01returnid=75&cntnt01productid=90&cntnt01page=5&cntnt01returnid=75&hl=en_GB
-http://www.doneo.com.mt/SubCategories.aspx?mainid=4&catID=50
-http://www.astral.com.mt/web/category/speakers

Can you please look at these vendors and advise whether any brands and models do make a right fit?

Thanks
Malta, i've been there. Was there for work, but ended up waiting for a while there and got to walk around/explore for a few days (Valleta).

It's so close to the european union, can you buy there? Or will they kill you with tax? I remember cars had some insane tax...

Out of all of those, KEF is the brand that sticks out.

Is your budget in USD or euros? I should have asked when I saw the metric system (I'm American but use both often so I didn't think anything of it).

As far as the couch, I think your going to be able to push it closer than you think. THX recommends a minimum of 36-deg viewing angle. On a 55" TV, that's just about 2 meters. You'd have lots of room then, right? Maybe even enough to section the area off and put the rears on stands behind or next to the couch and still have lots of room to walk.
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Acoustics, I'd probably be doing something like this (again, I'm a bit blind without seeing the room):

http://gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/

(this is a stereo system, but notice where they put the chair? :) )

I had in mind you treating the sidewall, then if the ceiling is opening thought black bass traps could hide nice. Then in the front corner, a bass trap stack. Rear wall diffusion at the direct points of the left and right, with absorption in the center.

When you clap your hands in the room now, what does it sound like? Does it echo? Like a fluttering sound decaying of the clap?
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Messy sketch.... again, depends on the room. Also I'd have the ceiling treated. Floor just put a REAL rug (the varying fibre lengths soak up a wider range of frequencies than the synthetic stuff).

Untitled-1.jpg
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Something about this sketch has me busting up laughing...

More seriously, are you sure that's not over treated? I'm trying to say it is, more just trying to learn about opinions of room treatment.
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
He asked for a general idea.

This is based on a (unknown, which he is aware of) concrete room with an open ceiling. That's very live. A typical American living room has so much **** in it....and is not all, but a lot of, drywall. That's not typical worldwide. Carpets, couches, bullshit on every surface, blankets, dogs, drapes, whatever lol and you get absorption 'to taste' and generally have more trouble with the low end... go move into a bare concrete space and it's very different. Without treating first and second reflections, yikes. Like being in a glass and tile sealed shower. Bass, literally sticks. My room is concrete. So, I put carpet, bass traps were needed, and a lot of absorption.

Likely this is under treated, but being nearfield he has a great advantage.

Also remember, it's to give a general idea. Not a plan.

And he might say 'hell no!' ... and most people do. (That's why their rooms generally limit their experience, not their speakers).
 
R

russcami123

Enthusiast
Below please find the links to view the photos of the area where I wish to have my AVS. It is currently work in progress, so don't bother of the tools and things around:)
Unfortunately in my original diagram, I forgot to depict the small penisula coming from the kitchen which can be seen in images 2 and 12-18. I was thinking to place the tv, in the exact place where there is the carton box shown in images 2 and 10. Hence I was thinking to palce the front speakers and subs on that side of the room.
Images 3, 7 and 8 shown the gypsum ceiling. All the apartment will eventually be covered by gypsum ceiling in case it makes any difference.
Images 15 to 17 are taken from the corridor side. Images 2 and 4 are taken from the kitchen's end. Image 18 shows the distance between the entrance door and the penisula of the kitchen. Image 4 and 13 show the back and the side wall... as you can see both walls have electric outlets if the speakers will be active. Image 9 shows the 'step' between the kitchen's ceiling and the living's ceiling.

Regarding the speakers, yes I can buy them from mainland Europe (Malta is in the EU), however the shipping might be expensive especially if the speakers are heavy. Regarding the budget I am sticking with the EUR 10000, however I might be able to add something more if needed!


http://s11.postimg.org/kwqkvkyar/1_4.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/se4dojd7n/5_8.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/6g7wuqy77/9_12.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/3nepapxur/13_16.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/rsfesfi5f/17_19.jpg
 
R

russcami123

Enthusiast
It's so close to the european union, can you buy there? Or will they kill you with tax? I remember cars had some insane tax...
Below please find links to photos of the area where I wish to have my AVS. It is currently work in progress, so don't bother of the tools and things around:)
Unfortunately in my original diagram, I forgot to depict the small penisula coming from the kitchen which can be seen in images 2 and 12-18. I was thinking to place the tv, in the exact place where there is the carton box shown in images 2 and 10. Hence I was thinking to palce the front speakers and subs on that side of the room.
Images 3, 7 and 8 shown the gypsum ceiling. All the apartment will eventually be covered by gypsum ceiling in case it makes any difference.
Images 15 to 17 are taken from the corridor side. Images 2 and 4 are taken from the kitchen's end. Image 18 shows the distance between the entrance door and the penisula of the kitchen. Image 4 and 13 show the back and the side wall... as you can see both walls have electric outlets if the speakers will be active. Image 9 shows the 'step' between the kitchen's ceiling and the living's ceiling.

Regarding the speakers, yes I can buy them from mainland Europe (Malta is in the EU), however the shipping might be expensive especially if the speakers are heavy. Regarding the budget I am sticking with the EUR 10000, however I might be able to add something more if needed!

http://s11.postimg.org/kwqkvkyar/1_4.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/se4dojd7n/5_8.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/6g7wuqy77/9_12.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/3nepapxur/13_16.jpg
http://s11.postimg.org/rsfesfi5f/17_19.jpg
 
R

russcami123

Enthusiast
Attached please find some photos of the area where I wish to have my AVS. It is currently work in progress, so don't bother of the tools and things around:)
Unfortunately in my original diagram, I forgot to depict the small penisula coming from the kitchen which can be seen in images 2 and 12-18. I was thinking to place the tv, in the exact place where there is the carton box shown in images 2 and 10. Hence I was thinking to palce the front speakers and subs on that side of the room.
Images 3, 7 and 8 shown the gypsum ceiling. All the apartment will eventually be covered by gypsum ceiling in case it makes any difference.
Images 15 to 17 are taken from the corridor side. Images 2 and 4 are taken from the kitchen's end. Image 18 shows the distance between the entrance door and the penisula of the kitchen. Image 4 and 13 show the back and the side wall... as you can see both walls have electric outlets if the speakers will be active. Image 9 shows the 'step' between the kitchen's ceiling and the living's ceiling.

Regarding the speakers, yes I can buy them from mainland Europe (Malta is in the EU), however the shipping might be expensive especially if the speakers are heavy. Regarding the budget I am sticking with the EUR 10000, however I might be able to add something more if needed!

P.S. Will add images from 9 to 19 later due to quota limit!

1-4.jpg5-8.jpg
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Attached please find some photos of the area where I wish to have my AVS. It is currently work in progress, so don't bother of the tools and things around:)
Unfortunately in my original diagram, I forgot to depict the small penisula coming from the kitchen which can be seen in images 2 and 12-18. I was thinking to place the tv, in the exact place where there is the carton box shown in images 2 and 10. Hence I was thinking to palce the front speakers and subs on that side of the room.
Images 3, 7 and 8 shown the gypsum ceiling. All the apartment will eventually be covered by gypsum ceiling in case it makes any difference.
Images 15 to 17 are taken from the corridor side. Images 2 and 4 are taken from the kitchen's end. Image 18 shows the distance between the entrance door and the penisula of the kitchen. Image 4 and 13 show the back and the side wall... as you can see both walls have electric outlets if the speakers will be active. Image 9 shows the 'step' between the kitchen's ceiling and the living's ceiling.

Regarding the speakers, yes I can buy them from mainland Europe (Malta is in the EU), however the shipping might be expensive especially if the speakers are heavy. Regarding the budget I am sticking with the EUR 10000, however I might be able to add something more if needed!

P.S. Will add images from 9 to 19 later due to quota limit!
Yeah, this is very similar to my construction. Looks like slab floor too. The main thing is your going to have more isolation. So, from a quick reference, and +/- since there are varying construction techniques, but concrete has about 40% more isolation. Basically, yelling through a drywall wall you'd hear 40% more than your concrete. That's just factoring the material itself, it doesn't account for air gaps which are present just from A/C, doors, etc. But, again, gives you an idea.

I can't remember, do you guys use hurricane glass? Not sure if that's the same term in Malta...but, basically reinforced double pane glass for hurricanes/typhones? It's really tough? (hit it with a hammer it hurts your wrist..)

10,000 EUR is more than enough. When the EUR was 1.5:1 to the USD was a big advantage to buy stuff in America, now it's still 20% ...that's why I was asking....but, by the time you get it there it might not be worth it.

What about Italy? Genelec has a distributor there.
Active Speakers and Speaker Systems from Genelec since 1978

(actually the larger white ones in the slideshow were my recommendation, they come in black too, but, in your place would look great in white)

There is a Italian distributor, but I would first contact Genelec directly for their recommendation where to purchase. Can buy in the Euros and stay in the EU. There might be an internet retailer that delivers to Malta even?

I'd also call B&H and see what it would be like to ship. They are an awesome supplier here in the US: B&H Photo Video Digital Cameras, Photography, Camcorders

Still think this is a nice nearfield solution:
Genelec 8030A Broadcast Pack 5.1 Surround 8030.LSE BROADCAST PAK

....

As far as treatment...yep...lol...my initial opinion stays about the same. If you did white Genelec speakers, you could do white acoustic panels for a nice look. I think both the ones in that pack are sold in white, and I know the home edition (which might be better for you since no volume knob on them, you just use the receiver) offers white.

...

See, what I'm recommending isn't ugly as everyone was thinking ;) Actually kinda sharp looking? ;)
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Also, the photos confirm my feeling of going nearfield. I'd tuck the whole system in that corner. Can run the left and right surrounds to your ears side, with one to the side on the wall and the other the cable runs under the couch to a stand and up.

This would cover 3 people nicely, and keep a lot of free area behind for walking (more so than before). The center would be the sweet spot. You'd be surprised at the output of the Genelec, and the built in protection is nice.
 
R

russcami123

Enthusiast
Also, the photos confirm my feeling of going nearfield. I'd tuck the whole system in that corner. Can run the left and right surrounds to your ears side, with one to the side on the wall and the other the cable runs under the couch to a stand and up.

This would cover 3 people nicely, and keep a lot of free area behind for walking (more so than before). The center would be the sweet spot. You'd be surprised at the output of the Genelec, and the built in protection is nice.
Great! Thanks for the guidance... I will look into the Genelec speakers and will work it out from there!
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
I checked around and the Genelec are not available in Malta, however I researched for other active loud speakers... What do you think about DB Technologies? - WELCOME TO FUTURETECH-MALTA.COM // THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE

Thanks
Will B&H ship there? Click on Live Chat, save you the long distance call. They have real people on there.
B&H Photo Video Digital Cameras, Photography, Camcorders

DB Technologies I've heard in nightclubs.... They we'ren't bad, Funktion One was always better. But, in your room, neither make sense.

KEF so far is the front runner.
Five of these:
Hi-Fi Speakers - R Series - Fact Sheets - Bookshelf - R100 - KEF International

With:
Hi-Fi Speakers - R Series - Fact Sheets - Subwoofer - R400b - KEF International

The extra extension of the r300 isn't worth it. You'll be crossing over to the subwoofer around 80Hz and the r100 stays flat far enough beyond that.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top