Need subwoofer advice for new home theater build

[tommy2tone]

I just started to build a new 7.1 (or possibly 7.2) surround sound here's what i have so far

1) Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR1010 7.2-Channel THX Certified Network A/V Receiver
2) Center channel: Klipsch RC-64 II Center Speaker
3) Front L/R: 2 Klipsch RF-82 II
4) Middle L/R: 2 Klipsch RS-62 II
5) Rear L/R: 2 Klipsch RB-81 II

i'm looking for good hz range and clarity of sound for both movies and music, if possible for under 1000 dollars for one speaker. i'm thinking of starting with one, then maybe if it's needed setting up two for the full 7.2 audio. also, i'm looking for a good blend with the klipsch audio system i'm setting up. at first i was thinking of going with klipsch for the sub, but their ranges and reviews haven't been very impressive. all help is greatly appreciated.

 

[bikemig]

Hsu makes great subs; so does SVS. I just purchased an SVS SB 2000 as I needed something small for my HT system. I love the sub but I probably would have gone with a ported sub if I had more space. The folks at SVS are incredibly helpful and they have an excellent return policy which is a big deal when dealing with an internet direct company. At $1k, you could get the PB2000: SVS PB-2000 - 500 Watt DSP Controlled, 12" Ported Subwoofer

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

How big is the room and is it open to other spaces? SVS PB-2000 as mentioned, is very accurate subs, but just may not have the output for very large room

 

[shadyJ]

The best $1k sub is the Hsu VTF15h. It should be able to tackle a large room.

 

[jkgsxr]

You could also check out the psa xv15.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The street price on the Klipsch THX Ultra2 KW-120 subwoofer is under $750 each. It is a passive subwoofer like all your speakers. You can power 2 subs with one Dayton SA1000 amp (950 watts, street price ~ $300).

Let Audyssey XT32 EQ the subs and speakers.

 

[Bear123]

I would steer clear from retail brands and stick to the ID subs. The ones mentioned above are good options Hsu, PSA, SVS, Rythmik, and Outlaw.

My top suggestion would also be the Hsu VTF15 followed by PSA XV15 and SVS PB2000. The Hsu VTF 3.4 is in this class as well but not as good as the VTF15.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would steer clear from retail brands and stick to the ID subs.

Everyone feels differently.

I would steer clear of all powered subs and stick to only passive subs + external EQ/DSP/amp. But that's just me.

The only 2 ID brands I can think of that offer passive subs include Funk and JTR.

Also keep in mind that outdoor measured output is one thing (just like speaker measurements). How the subs and speakers actually sound to you in your room in terms of both Quality and Quantity is another thing.

 

[Bear123]

Everyone feels differently.

I would steer clear of all powered subs and stick to only passive subs + external EQ/DSP/amp. But that's just me.

The only 2 ID brands I can think of that offer passive subs include Funk and JTR.QUOTE]

These are ruled out due to ops budget

 

[Steve81]

The street price on the Klipsch THX Ultra2 KW-120 subwoofer is under $750 each. It is a passive subwoofer like all your speakers. You can power 2 subs with one Dayton SA1000 amp (950 watts, street price ~ $300).

Let Audyssey XT32 EQ the subs and speakers.

I'm not sure I'd bother with the Klipsch subs even with that deep of a discount. Glancing at the specs, it looks like the THX subwoofer line delivers massive output, with 130dB at 30Hz, 122dB at 20Hz, and 112dB at 15Hz. However, it's worth noting these numbers are spec'ed at 1m, with two subs side by side, in 1/8th space (i.e. corner loaded). To get this number closer to an apples to apples comparison with 2m ground plane numbers we're used to from Josh, you'd have to subtract 6dB to drop to one subwoofer, another 6dB to go from 1m to 2m, and another 12dB to convert from 1/8th space to half space, for a total of 24dB to be subtracted. What you're left with is 106dB at 30Hz, 98dB at 20Hz, and 88dB at 15Hz, which aren't terribly impressive against a sub like the VTF15H.

As you say, there's more to life than quantity; however, given the VTF15's measurements and configuration options, I don't see quality being a problem either.

 

[3db]

I'm not sure I'd bother with the Klipsch subs even with that deep of a discount. Glancing at the specs, it looks like the THX subwoofer line delivers massive output, with 130dB at 30Hz, 122dB at 20Hz, and 112dB at 15Hz. However, it's worth noting these numbers are spec'ed at 1m, with two subs side by side, in 1/8th space (i.e. corner loaded). To get this number closer to an apples to apples comparison with 2m ground plane numbers we're used to from Josh, you'd have to subtract 6dB to drop to one subwoofer, another 6dB to go from 1m to 2m, and another 12dB to convert from 1/8th space to half space, for a total of 24dB to be subtracted. What you're left with is 106dB at 30Hz, 98dB at 20Hz, and 88dB at 15Hz, which aren't terribly impressive against a sub like the VTF15H.

As you say, there's more to life than quantity; however, given the VTF15's measurements and configuration options, I don't see quality being a problem either.

Gee, the PB1000 and the Rythmik LV12-R are better performers than the Klipsch and are far more linear in their response.

 

[Steve81]

Gee, the PB1000 and the Rythmik LV12-R are better performers than the Klipsch and are far more linear in their response.

To be fair, deep bass doesn't appear to be the KW-120's forte. It's relatively small (about half the size of the VTF15 by external volume) and it boasts a good sized slot port. Taken together, you've got a recipe for a relatively high tuning point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not sure I'd bother with the Klipsch subs even with that deep of a discount. Glancing at the specs, it looks like the THX subwoofer line delivers massive output, with 130dB at 30Hz, 122dB at 20Hz, and 112dB at 15Hz. However, it's worth noting these numbers are spec'ed at 1m, with two subs side by side, in 1/8th space (i.e. corner loaded). To get this number closer to an apples to apples comparison with 2m ground plane numbers we're used to from Josh, you'd have to subtract 6dB to drop to one subwoofer, another 6dB to go from 1m to 2m, and another 12dB to convert from 1/8th space to half space, for a total of 24dB to be subtracted. What you're left with is 106dB at 30Hz, 98dB at 20Hz, and 88dB at 15Hz, which aren't terribly impressive against a sub like the VTF15H.

As you say, there's more to life than quantity; however, given the VTF15's measurements and configuration options, I don't see quality being a problem either.

As I've already mentioned, 2m ground plane outdoor measurements don't really tell you the subjective in-room quality and quantity of the bass.

I've heard 2 of these subs in a big THX room demo, and they are anything but lacking in bass output and quality. These subs are duly THX Ultra2 certified.

I would rather have 2 of these Passive Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs than any other 2 active subs with some plate amps crammed into the cabinet and don't offer me the flexibility of using separates.

I don't think it's fair to pass judgment, make subtractions and assumptions before you guys even hear what these subs can do.

Okay, I wouldn't pay $1500 each. But at $750, they are excellent sounding to my ears.

Well, okay I would rather have the RBH SX-1010N subs for $800 each.

My SX-1010N passive subs are so articulate and musical like my Salon2 woofers, I wouldn't trade them for any active RBH, SVS, Rythmik, PSA subs.

 

[Bear123]

As I've already mentioned, 2m ground plane outdoor measurements don't really tell you the subjective in-room quality and quantity of the bass.

I've heard 2 of these subs in a big THX room demo, and they are anything but lacking in bass output and quality. These subs are duly THX Ultra2 certified.

I would rather have 2 of these Passive Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs than any other 2 active subs with some plate amps crammed into the cabinet and don't offer me the flexibility of using separates.

I don't think it's fair to pass judgment, make subtractions and assumptions before you guys even hear what these subs can do.

Okay, I wouldn't pay $1500 each. But at $750, they are excellent sounding to my ears.

I disagree. This is the best method to subjectively and accurately compare two subs in an apples to apples environment. The sub with the best performance in this setting will also have the superior performance in room. That's why accurate testing is done in this manner rather than trying to disguise poor performance by stacking numbers with corner loading, room gain, and dual subs.

 

[crossedover]

Dual opposed Dayton 18 reference subs, diy 8 cubic ft enclosure with a inuke6000 and all good. . There's your grand.

 

[Steve81]

As I've already mentioned, 2m ground plane outdoor measurements don't really tell you the subjective in-room quality and quantity of the bass.

I don't think anyone is saying outdoor measurements are a perfect indicator of what you get in room; however, they are a guide as to how subwoofers compare on an even playing field without interference from a room. In that respect, unless Klipsch is massively understating their numbers, the KW-120 doesn't keep up with the VTF15. Moreover, the measurements also tell us that qualitatively the VTF15H does a very good job in terms of distortion and performance in the time domain. Does that mean what you see on data-bass is what you'll get in room? Of course not; however, that doesn't change the fact that the VTF15 is a superb subwoofer for the money, and as far as I can ascertain, substantially more capable than the KW-120. Comparing them in room isn't going to change that.

I would rather have 2 of these Passive Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs than any other 2 active subs with some plate amps crammed into the cabinet and don't offer me the flexibility of using separates.

And some folks aren't interested in another box for their cabinet/rack, particularly when it's got a measly 1 year warranty versus 2 for the Hsu's plate amp (which is upgradeable to 5 years). It also doesn't hurt that Hsu has been around for nearly 20 years if you're worried about getting stuck with a paper weight due to a plate amp failure.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I disagree. This is the best method to subjectively and accurately compare two subs in an apples to apples environment. The sub with the best performance in this setting will also have the superior performance in room. That's why accurate testing is done in this manner rather than trying to disguise poor performance by stacking numbers with corner loading, room gain, and dual subs.

So the sub with the best output numbers will just unequivocally integrate the best and sound the best in every single room, huh?

Okay, agree to disagree.

 

[3db]

I don't think anyone is saying outdoor measurements are a perfect indicator of what you get in room; however, they are a guide as to how subwoofers compare on an even playing field without interference from a room. In that respect, unless Klipsch is massively understating their numbers, the KW-120 doesn't keep up with the VTF15. Moreover, the measurements also tell us that qualitatively the VTF15H does a very good job in terms of distortion and performance in the time domain. Does that mean what you see on data-bass is what you'll get in room? Of course not; however, that doesn't change the fact that the VTF15 is a superb subwoofer for the money, and as far as I can ascertain, substantially more capable than the KW-120. Comparing them in room isn't going to change that.


And some folks aren't interested in another box for their cabinet/rack, particularly when it's got a measly 1 year warranty versus 2 for the Hsu's plate amp (which is upgradeable to 5 years). It also doesn't hurt that Hsu has been around for nearly 20 years if you're worried about getting stuck with a paper weight due to a plate amp failure.

Looking at JMan's review of the RythmikE15vs SVS SB13 Ultra, I can't see having seperate amps on a passive sub offers more flexability than the plate amps offered on the Rythmik E15S

Rythmik E15 vs SVS SB13 Ultra - Page 4

"In the amp department the Rythmik comes out on top, with an unparalleled level of flexibility (I ordered mine with the H600PEQ3). You can tailor many different things, providing a level of configurability no other company offers, which definitely plays to the adjustment junkie side of me. Rumble filter, lower extension, Q, crossover slope, PEQ, you name it. Everything is switches and dials too, which are quick and effective (I ultimately settled on a 14Hz/Mid/Rumble Filter Off/no PEQ setting for the majority of my testing). If you can't find a workable configuration for your environment with this amp you should probably consider moving. When pushed hard it will get warm though."

 

[Steve81]

So the sub with the best output numbers will just unequivocally integrate the best and sound the best in every single room, huh?

Okay, agree to disagree.

In this case, the VTF15H offers multiple tuning options (including their Q control) to help integrate it into a room. With the KW120 and a Dayton external amp, well...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And some folks aren't interested in another box for their cabinet/rack

And some folks just buy AVRs without ever buying any external amps too. It's kind of like subs with internal plate amps. All-in-one box solution, which is fine. But not all of us want the same thing.