Need recommendations on two high-end systems

[Unregistered]

I'm working with a client (a small video production house) who is doing some MAJOR rennovation. So major, in fact, that all their production work is now done in the back of a rental van or on three Powerbook *4's that they bought.

In system one, which we shall call "Production room" - audio is to be outputted from an Apple PowerMac *5 via a TOSlink optical connector to an as-yet-undetermined system. The room is a 10x10x10 cube, totally soundproofed. The *5 is one of the new, watercooled units (with a number of modifications on my part to further decrease noise), and as such very little floor noise exists to speak of. Video on this system is outputted from the *5 to dual Apple Cinema 30" displays (some OBSCENE resolution that I can't think of off the top of my head) via DDL-DVI. Yes, that's Apple-proprietary for the moment. The *5 also has a very noisy xServe-RAID unit attached, but we found an ingenius solution to that and put it on the server rack on the other side of the wall. More than $30,000 worth of equipment for the computer alone, nevermind the audio input components.

At any rate, we will be outputting the optical signal to a semi-reference audio system. I've been working with these guys for a number of years, ever since they got their start in high school, actually, and we've always held one standard with our audio output equipment - if it sounds nice on okay stuff, it'll sound GREAT on better stuff and acceptable on that crapass mono speaker on most SDTVs. We've found this to be more or less true. But now they are ready (software-wise) to move into 5.1 and above production. And as such, we need a 5.1 (Or better, to provide for future expansion) output system.

Keep in mind that this will be a VERY small space which, though quiet, may well become a serious pain in the *** (We're perfectly willing to slap sound-deadener up on the walls to keep reverb down) and that volume levels will be kept fairly low. Once the speakers are set up to a reference configuration, they WILL NOT be changed - everything will be manipulated within the software. Typically, a single person, situated almost dead-center in the room will be the only listener. For this system, we need only audio amps - but if you want to recommend an A/V reciever for the OSD, that's acceptable - we'll simply slap an inexpensive LCD display on a composite output from it. We also need speakers.


The second system gives a lot more room for 'fun.' It's a mini-theater, seating capacity ten people. The audio/video source in this case is a WingCorp Custom Computers (my company) Theater-X12. In essence, this is a 4u rackmount server with a massive air duct flowing through it - the computer actually sits IN a cold-air path rather than drawing one into it as in traditional applications. The entire chassis and ductwork contained within the room is sound-deadened - you can't even tell it's on from two feet away - and it is 5 feet from listening ears. The system features two DVI outputs, one of which feeds a 19" LCD (1280x1024 native res, running 1024x768) which we have mounted in the rack with the computer for setup purposes. The other LCD output, unless I get recommendations otherwise, will output a mirror of the other output to a rear, ceiling-mounted Canon LV-7555 projector (1024x768 native res)

Control over this computer is attained through three methods. Remote control via any other computer in the building, by physically getting up from your chair and going over to the rack, where a keyboard and trackball have also been mounted in a drawer, or by USB jacks in the armrest of the front and center chair. We considered RF wireless keyboard/mouse, but we can't find a single model that offers us more than about 10 feet of wander from the base-station that doesn't use that atrocity called "bluetooth"

The room is a regular trapezoid, the screen being at the smaller end. That wall measures 25 feet in length, the rear wall measures 30 feet in length and the side walls measure 20 feet. There's enough for a third row of chairs (we think, we havn't actually sat down in these things yet to work out legroom), and the ceiling is 9 and a half feet high. Volume level is no concern, the office is set back in the woods a quarter mile from civilization, and lord knows that no work will be getting done when this thing is in use. We prefer borderline ear-bleeding, but it'll be custom-readjusted every time to suit the presentation. The purpose of this room is dual. It is intended for premiere screenings of feature-length products (They only ever do these for fun, really, but they make GREAT demo fodder to show off the possibilities) and to win over new customers by showing them their demos in unrivalled clarity and quality.

Projection will be onto a purpose build concave screen inset into the front wall (Which we will obtain/build once we actually have the projection and seating in place and find out a comfortable projection size.

Power conditioning is handled by a pair of Furman IT-1220 20A power conditioners (Two 20A circuits are available to the rack and projector, one 20A circuit is dedicated to lighting, one 20A circuit is dedicated to Auxiliary uses. An actual mains box housing the breakers for these circuits is accessible behind a wall panel right next to the rack. As for the components still required for this system, we are looking for a 7.1 receiver or equivalent set of hardware and associated speakers. Wiring will be interesting due to run length, but we will find a way.

Why is such a rediculously high-end project in the beginners and audiophytes forum? Because, quite frankly, not a single person working on this has a damn bit of clue about audio output hardware other than headphones. Our local stores are ALL about selling us the HTIB.

Sorry for being so long-winded, but there was a lot of stuff to cover.

 

[Unregistered]

Oh yeah

And money, the important part, is no object. There's $50k left in the "rennovation fund" that hasn't been allocated, so that's what you have to work with.

 

[Westrock2000]

Alright well I guess I'll make a recomendation on what I would do. Be aware this is based your description, as I have no idea what the rooms really look like

For Production Room.

Normal Bookshelf speakers for the mains. Position them for best imaging. Then buy a Seperate Power Subwoofer for Left and Right Channel. Position them for best bass response, probably out from the corner a bit. Then use matching speaker for center. LFE sub is optional, as you could wire the main channel inputs into the left RCA input of each sub, and split the LFE input into each right RCA input of each sub. So you would get stereo bass, and a balanced LFE (undetectable). For surrounds either surround specific speakers or just more of whats up front. Something like those Mackie/Alesis powered monitors up front would probably be more than addequite, then you wouldn't need any amplifiers, just run RCA cables to Subs and Monitors.

For Theater

Magnepan 1.6QR's for the mains. The reason I choose these is that they are huge, but don't cost a ton of cash ($1500 pr). They are so tall that if you elevate the chairs everyone still has sound relativly level with their head. Plus they will just plain produce alot ambiant sound to fill up the place. The Magnepans could also easily be moved out of the way, due to their lightweight, and thin nature. Easily storeable. I'd recommend an amp with probably 200-250 watts per channel. If you used an active crossover and filtered out say 100Hz and below, you could get away with alot less power requirments.

The center channel should be descent sized model, one of those wide MTM (D'Appiloto) kind, so that the sound disperses nicely.

I recommend using 4 12" (or 15") drivers for the bass, so that you can fill the room with alot of bass and not need a ton of power to do it. I'd say, room permitting, have each one in a 3-4 CuFt (about 18"-20" square for each) vented enclosure. You could easily tune them to about 25Hz, and a single 250W amp should be plenty for this. Remember if you connect 4 drivers together (2 pairs in parrellel then those two pairs togther in series) it will only be 8 ohms. And since each driver will require 1/4 the power of a single driver, it would be like pushing a single driver with a 1000W amp. You could easily cover this enclosure with carpet so it blends in nicely...then just set the center channel on top.

I put 2 surrounds on each side, so that the front and back listeners get equal sound, and hopefully it should diffuse the sound, since a lonely speaker in a huge space might be detectable

Hope that is helpfull.....makes me happy just thinking about that project

 

[markw]

While not en exoert on such matters, by virtue of owning a pair of Maggie 1'6's I do have several years of experience with them and I'll offer this advice.

They perform well in a fairly large area when placed several feet away from the rear and side walls. Putting these in a 10 x 10 room, while phsically possible, would not showcase them at their best and, in fact, would seriously hobble their performance.

 

[Westrock2000]

Putting MMG's in a 10x10 room is barely feasible, trust me I should know. However if you look back I did not recommend that.

Unless you just saying "Hey those might be great in the big room, but keep 'em in the big room".

 

[markw]

Pretty much.

Putting MMG's in a 10x10 room is barely feasible, trust me I should know. However if you look back I did not recommend that.

Unless you just saying "Hey those might be great in the big room, but keep 'em in the big room".

It's 4:00 am and I just read about the small room in the description. Just sorta skimmed the rest. They would be fine for the big room for music but HT sometimes puts extermely dynamic transient demands on main and center speakers.

If he chooses the 1.6's as the way he wants to go, I'd suggest he look into using Maggie's center channel though.

 

[Westrock2000]

As much as I'd like to recommend an all Magnepan system. I went with a traditional dynamic center channel to reduce beaming. If this were a setup for one person sitting in "the rut" and enjoying a movie then yes it would be great, but because the Maggies beam like a laser I don't think it would be suited for a group of poeple.

Basically The Magnepan mains will be providing a lot of ambiant sound, but since most of the dialog will be coming from the center channel, you want a speaker design that will allow most everyone in the room to hear the same thing.

Just something to be aware of to those who have not witnessed Planar technology first hand. Their not as "plug and play" as dynamic (cone/dome) speakers. Its more like DOS, the stuff will work, you just gotta set it up properly first

 

[markw]

While I love my Maggies, I don't think they are the best for HT. the big draw of HT is the ability to "reproduce" large scale acoustic events that ar erarely experienced in real life an therefore realisim is not really the criteria strived for. Few people have up front experience with swooping heilicopters, earthquakes, rampaging dinosaurs, gunfire from all around, laser pistols et al...

While "realisim" in it's strictist sense is not the main criteria here, the ability to play extermely loud with a limited power source is. And, to most, loud and clean IS realistic for SFX.

Now, for music, a bit more subtelty is required. A lot more detail at low levels is the order of the day here.

Ultimately, I'll try to simply state my basic beliefs in a few short sentences.

A system that does great music will do great HT, as long as it can handle the dymanic range demanded by HT. A system that sounds great on HT may not sound good on music.

If music is to play any part at all in ones system, audition with music first. Then, when you find something that satisfies musically, move on to the HT side.

If music is not to play a major part in your system, than simply bring on the action DVD's for your audition. You'll probably save lot of money here and be just as happy.

Since I'm fairly new here, here's a listing of what I play around with so you can see where I come from. http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/1606.html

 

[Westrock2000]

Sorta related but not really. One time I was watching Heat on laserdisc, and I had this cat that used to sit behind one of the maggies, so she could peek out and see what was going on. Anyways, she kept falling asleep, and I had it real loud (although the movies fairly lowkey), and everytime someone would shoot she would jump up and look around and then slowly go back to sleep only to do the same thing like 5 minutes later. It was pretty humerous.

 

[markw]

In spite of what they would have you believe, cats ain'tthe sharpest knife in the drawer. Now, this doesn't mean I don't love my grey tabby. He's probably been my most constant companion these past 15 years and, I hope, for quite a few more.

...but, just 'cause he's loveable doesn't mean he's a genius. He does more tnan a few stupid things. And, somethings that border on genius.

When he wants us to get up, he simply jumps up on the dresser and meows' looking at me as if to say "OK, time to get up and feed me"

When I look at him, he's gently tapping something or another there. .. with that same look.

He meows again.

This goes on a few times and then he simply taps whatever it is off the dresser on the floor. Ka-Rash!

Then he looks at me as if to say "Don't say I didn't give you warning"

Da Little schlitz! Know why god made cats cute? So ya don't kill 'em!

Yeah, we get up then, but we simply chase him out and close the door until WE'RE ready to get up.

 

[zipper]

For the theatre room,an alternative to the maggies might be some Klipschs. I had a pr of Klipsch Forte's that were excellent in HT use. Very efficient & handle action scenes very well. I'm not sure what would be comparable to the Forte's these days,maybe the RF-7's. I haven't kept up on the Klipsch line as of late.

For amps you may want to check out Outlawaudio.com. They have a line of amps that would be inexpensive but allow a lot of flexability. I don't have any experience with them but they get good reviews. Read the reviews at audioreview.com.Are said to run cool which may help you in this case.