Need help to decide if I need an external amp

[Robin Wikström]

Hi everyone, I have recently invested in a sound system and I'm very pleased with the sound quality, but I'm concerned that in the future I might play too loud for the receiver to handle and as of now I'm not really sure how loud I can play (as I understand it's the receiver that often restrict a system because of the signal quality getting worse the higher you play, right me if I'm wrong ).

So this is where I need your help,
1. How high can I crank up the volume without the system failing on me?
2. Will I get an improvement if I buy an external amp or am I already at the limit of what the speakers can handle?
3. How will an amp effect my system since it's 5.0 do i need to take the surround and center speaker into consideration?
4. If I decide to buy a amp, which one do you recommend and how much of a gain can I expect?

The system I'm using is a proson inphase 5.0 (but I'm planning to buy an active sub soon, so feel free to suggest ), you have probably never heard of them so I will list the specs here. The receiver I'm using is an Yamaha RX-775 and it's the european model since I'm located in Sweden If you don't want to search for the specs for your self i will list them too.

Front speakers (IPF-6):
Construction: 3 bass reflexes backward Goldplated Bi-wiring terminal
Ability to change the crossover on the midrange / tweeter
Tweeter: 4 x 1-inch Super Audio tweeter with Neodymium magnet
Midrange: 2 x 6.5-inch midrange
Base: 2 x 6.5-inch subwoofers
Impedance: 4 ohms
Frequency range: 28-32 000Hz
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Max Power: 250 W
Dimensions (HxWxD): 1100 x 280 x 345 mm
Weight: 22kg

Center speaker (IPC-6):
Construction: 4 Bass Reflex backward
Tweeter: 2 x 1-inch Super Audio tweeter with Neodymium magnet
Bass / midrange: 2 x 6.5-inch bass / midrange
Impedance: 4 ohms
Frequency range: 40-32 000Hz
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Max Power: 180 W
Dimensions (HxWxD): 225 x 525 x 230 mm
Weight: 7.5 kg

Surround speakers (IPS-6):
Construction: 2 Bass Reflex backward
Tweeter: 2 x 1-inch Super Audio tweeter with Neodymium magnet
Bass / midrange: 1 x 6.5-inch bass / midrange
Impedance: 4 ohms
Frequency range: 50-32 000Hz
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Max Power: 100 w
Dimensions (HxWxD): 225 x 326 x 165-185 MM
Weight: 3.9 kg

Yamaha RX-775:
Amplifier Section Channel 7.2
Rated Output Power (1kHz, 1ch driven) 160W (4ohms, 0.9% THD [European Model])
Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 95W (8ohms, 0.09% THD)
Maximum Effective Output Power (1kHz, 1ch driven) (JEITA) 160W (8ohms, 10% THD)
Dynamic Power per Channel (8/6/4/2 ohms) 140/180/210/250W

 

[PENG]

Hi everyone, I have recently invested in a sound system and I'm very pleased with the sound quality, but I'm concerned that in the future I might play to loud for the receiver to handle and as of now I'm not really sure how loud I can play (as I understand it's the receiver that often restrict a system because of the signal quality getting worse the higher you play, right me if I'm wrong ).

So this is where I need your help,
1. How high can I crank up the volume without the system failing on me?
2. Will I get an improvement if I buy an external amp or am I already at the limit of what the speakers can handle?
3. How will an amp effect my system since it's 5.0 do i need to take the surround and center speaker into consideration?
4. If I decide to buy a amp, which one do you recommend and how much of a gain can I expect?

No one can tell you how high you can crank up the volume but we can probably tell you how loud in terms of approx SPL (units in dB) you will get within your speaker's power handling capability if we have the following information:

Room dimensions
Your sitting distance from your 5 speakers especially the L,C,R.
The sensitivity of your speakers in dB/W @1M. Just 92 dB is not enough

 

[Robin Wikström]

No one can tell you how high you can crank up the volume but we can probably tell you how loud in terms of approx SPL (units in dB) you will get within your speaker's power handling capability if we have the following information:

Room dimensions
Your sitting distance from your 5 speakers especially the L,C,R.
The sensitivity of your speakers in dB/W @1M. Just 92 dB is not enough

Ok, I get that it isn't that easy to know how loud another person can play. What I don't seem to get is why you need the room dimensions (ofc I know that it effects the sound but not that it would make much diffrence if i just messured the db at a fixed point like 2m away), I don't mean that in a negative way it's just that I'm just starting to get into sound and things like that and would very much appreciate an explanation .

The room is small about maybe 6m * 4m and I'm just under the roof so the ceiling tilts up about 45° 1,5m and then gets flat for about 3m and tilts down. And I'm sitting towards the short side about 2m from each front speaker and the center. The surround speakers is temporarily on a shelf to the side of me about 1.5m then, I don't have much space to work whit . And I'm probably going to move to a bigger place soon.

I will let you know more about the sensitivity when I know there isn't much info about the speakers and I can't find the db/w@1m so I will send prisoner email.

 

[PENG]

Ok, I get that it isn't that easy to know how loud another person can play. What I don't seem to get is why you need the room dimensions (ofc I know that it effects the sound but not that it would make much diffrence if i just messured the db at a fixed point like 2m away), I don't mean that in a negative way it's just that I'm just starting to get into sound and things like that and would very much appreciate an explanation .

You are right about that for an open field application but not in a room unless it is concert hall size. In a room you get room gain and that does depend on the geometry, dimensions (that means size too) of the room and that can vary a few dB depending on other factors including but not limited to your listening distance. Remember a mere 3 dB difference could equate to doubling or halving your amplifier power output requirement so it is not insignificant. The details in the mathematical analysis and psycho acoustical aspects in this topic are complicated, and I am no expert in this area.

The room is small about maybe 6m * 4m and I'm just under the roof so the ceiling tilts up about 45° 1,5m and then gets flat for about 3m and tilts down. And I'm sitting towards the short side about 2m from each front speaker and the center. The surround speakers is temporarily on a shelf to the side of me about 1.5m then, I don't have much space to work whit . And I'm probably going to move to a bigger place soon.

I will let you know more about the sensitivity when I know there isn't much info about the speakers and I can't find the db/w@1m so I will send prisoner email.

Your room is mainly rectangular and since you sit on the short size and so close to the front speakers, the SPL (again I would stay away from "how loud"), I would assume no more than a couple of dB of room gain assuming your speakers won't be more than 3 to 4 ft from the wall.

Now we just wait for the dB/W@1M. If they can only give you the dB/2.83V @1M then we have to assume an impedance value to do the calculation. They specified 4 ohm but that does not mean a whole lot without seeing a couple of graphs. Whatever the number we end up in the end it will be very approximate but if the calculation show you need only 1W to get the SPL you listen to then you know adding an external amp will not likely make much difference. Base on the limited information we have so far, my educated guess is that you do need an external amplifier if you want to have enough headroom when listening to >80 dB average SPL. Some people are happy with 75 dB average so it does depend on the individual's preference and tolerance too. I cannot tolerate anything higher than 80 dB average.

 

[Robin Wikström]

Okey, thanks for the help and ofc the sound is plenty enough for me if I sitt in the room, but sometimes i like to go from the room and still be able to listen to music. Or say I get a bigger place I would like to know where the limit is.

As I wait for them to answer my question, I would like to know if there is any limit that i shouldn't push the reciver? Or is there any limit other than the one yamaha have set?

 

[PENG]

Okey, thanks for the help and ofc the sound is plenty enough for me if I sitt in the room, but sometimes i like to go from the room and still be able to listen to music. Or say I get a bigger place I would like to know where the limit is.

As I wait for them to answer my question, I would like to know if there is any limit that i shouldn't push the reciver? Or is there any limit other than the one yamaha have set?

Base on the information we have, I would say as long as your SPL meter shows an average SPL "C" weighting of less than 80 dB, with frequent peaks up to 100 dB at your 3 meters listening distance, you should be fine. By the way, it appears that those speakers are incredibly cheap compared to North American products with similar specs. I have no idea how they can make a profit, even if they have them made in China. Amazing!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I am even less of the expect on audio authority than Peng, but based on these numbers, my gut feelings and educated guesses I will provide my own opinions:

1. How high can I crank up the volume without the system failing on me?
Based on 250W amp support of speakers, the most likely reason for failure would be not sufficient amp. In case of yamaha - I expect it to do a nice shutdown before it lets you damage speakers. So crank the volume up as much as feel comfortable, but be vary of signal clipping/distortion at high volume - as soon as you hear it - turn down volume/system imminently or be ready to replace the tweeters !

That said Considering the Yamaha's honest 160w, speaker sensitive, distance - estimated Sound Pressure Level (SPL) at your seating position should be about 114dB. Keep in mind Boing 777 taking off makes about 120dB of noise - long time espouse to such level of sound is guaranteed to permanent ear damage.
2. Will I get an improvement if I buy an external amp or am I already at the limit of what the speakers can handle?
Most likely - no. I doubt you use your current avr at it's limits and these speakers are not that hard to power and even if you are, speakers can handle more power, but I doubt your ears could.

3. How will an amp effect my system since it's 5.0 do i need to take the surround and center speaker into consideration?
You don't have to get external amp for all 5 channels - you can mix and match like L/R or LRC to external amp and easy to power surrounds left to the AVR

4. If I decide to buy a amp, which one do you recommend and how much of a gain can I expect?
Depends on many factors

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Base on the information we have, I would say as long as your SPL meter shows an average SPL "C" weighting of less than 80 dB, with frequent peaks up to 100 dB at your 3 meters listening distance, you should be fine. By the way, it appears that those speakers are incredibly cheap compared to North American products with similar specs. I have no idea how they can make a profit, even if they have them made in China. Amazing!

about $535 (US) for a pair of front towers - now that's a great deal
http://www.ljudfokus.se/produkt/proson-inphase-ipf-6-2a-sort-black-piano-finish/5078/

 

[Robin Wikström]

Thank you very much for the help and I have heard that they are a good deal, I bought my system (5.0 + rx-v775) for about 10000kr which is about 1,350$ (and we have 25% tax extra than usa). And since I'm not that good whit specs I don't really know what to compare them whit and there isn't much info about them other than one good review. How much would the same spec speaker set kost in usa?

 

[Robin Wikström]

I am even less of the expect on audio authority than Peng, but based on these numbers, my gut feelings and educated guesses I will provide my own opinions:

1. How high can I crank up the volume without the system failing on me?
Based on 250W amp support of speakers, the most likely reason for failure would be not sufficient amp. In case of yamaha - I expect it to do a nice shutdown before it lets you damage speakers. So crank the volume up as much as feel comfortable, but be vary of signal clipping/distortion at high volume - as soon as you hear it - turn down volume/system imminently or be ready to replace the tweeters !

That said Considering the Yamaha's honest 160w, speaker sensitive, distance - estimated Sound Pressure Level (SPL) at your seating position should be about 114dB. Keep in mind Boing 777 taking off makes about 120dB of noise - long time espouse to such level of sound is guaranteed to permanent ear damage.
2. Will I get an improvement if I buy an external amp or am I already at the limit of what the speakers can handle?
Most likely - no. I doubt you use your current avr at it's limits and these speakers are not that hard to power and even if you are, speakers can handle more power, but I doubt your ears could.

3. How will an amp effect my system since it's 5.0 do i need to take the surround and center speaker into consideration?
You don't have to get external amp for all 5 channels - you can mix and match like L/R or LRC to external amp and easy to power surrounds left to the AVR

4. If I decide to buy a amp, which one do you recommend and how much of a gain can I expect?
Depends on many factors

I know it maybe hard to say but around what point can I expect clipping? (The rciver goes from -80db to +16,5db) or does it depend more on the SPL at a fixed point?

 

[PENG]

I am even less of the expect on audio authority than Peng, but based on these numbers, my gut feelings and educated guesses I will provide my own opinions:

1. How high can I crank up the volume without the system failing on me?
Based on 250W amp support of speakers, the most likely reason for failure would be not sufficient amp. In case of yamaha - I expect it to do a nice shutdown before it lets you damage speakers. So crank the volume up as much as feel comfortable, but be vary of signal clipping/distortion at high volume - as soon as you hear it - turn down volume/system imminently or be ready to replace the tweeters !

That said Considering the Yamaha's honest 160w, speaker sensitive, distance - estimated Sound Pressure Level (SPL) at your seating position should be about 114dB. Keep in mind Boing 777 taking off makes about 120dB of noise - long time espouse to such level of sound is guaranteed to permanent ear damage.
2. Will I get an improvement if I buy an external amp or am I already at the limit of what the speakers can handle?
Most likely - no. I doubt you use your current avr at it's limits and these speakers are not that hard to power and even if you are, speakers can handle more power, but I doubt your ears could.

3. How will an amp effect my system since it's 5.0 do i need to take the surround and center speaker into consideration?
You don't have to get external amp for all 5 channels - you can mix and match like L/R or LRC to external amp and easy to power surrounds left to the AVR

4. If I decide to buy a amp, which one do you recommend and how much of a gain can I expect?
Depends on many factors

Our numbers are quite difference because:

1) I conservatively assume 95W into 4 or 8 ohms, it certainly can do more than 95W into 4 ohms but a) not for long, b) we don't have the impedance vs frequency graph, c) no phase angle vs frequency graphs, d) not sure if the 92 dB is for 1W/1M, or 2.83V/M, so on the conservative side I have to assume it is for 92 dB/2.83V/1M, for 4 ohm speakers, that means 89 dB/W/1M approx.

2) I do not know if he listens to rock, jazz, classical etc., so again I have to assume the worst.

3) The 160W you use are based on 1 channel driven at 0.9% distortion, that typically means at or near clipping. For music, we really have to base on 2 channel at the minimum.

4) I say 80 dB is safe but that's 80 dB average, and I allow for 20 dB of headroom.

I know I am being super conservative but you seem to be quite aggressive with your numbers.

 

[Robin Wikström]

I know that this maybe isn't the right section to ask this question but I thougt that maybe I could try because we have already kind of started it.

It's about getting a sub to my system and since proson seams to have good deals I wonder I can compare their sub to?

http://www.ljudfokus.se/produkt/proson-rumble-r-10-black-piano/3727/

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Assuming sensitivity is 92dB/2.83v/m and listening distance is 3m, 90WPC into 4 ohms (45WPC into 8 ohms) is required to produce a total volume of 102dB from 2 speakers in 2.0 stereo mode.

How loud do you think you will ever listen from where you sit?

As far as your speaker physical/thermal limits, if the MAX rated power is 250W, then it probably means the woofers can handle 250W of power, but your midrange and tweeter probably cannot handle 250W of power.

Most AVR have great speaker protection. If you crank the volume too high, the AVR will just shut down.

Bottom line, if your system sounds great already, I would not recommend an amp.

I would also recommend buying some quiet fans for your AVR. Heat is the arch enemy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G05A2MU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use those fans for my 2 Denon and my movie projector.

 

[Robin Wikström]

Assuming sensitivity is 92dB/2.83v/m and listening distance is 3m, 90WPC into 4 ohms (45WPC into 8 ohms) is required to produce a total volume of 102dB from 2 speakers in 2.0 stereo mode.

How loud do you think you will ever listen from where you sit?

Okey, so my answer is that I may not be in the room att the time and/or I may have moved to a bigger place.

Will it make a diffrence how much i can puch the speakers if I play on 5 or 6 channel (in dolby music setting on the reciver)?

Thanks fpr all the help!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okey, so my answer is that I may not be in the room att the time and/or I may have moved to a bigger place.

Will it make a diffrence how much i can puch the speakers if I play on 5 or 6 channel (in dolby music setting on the reciver)?

Thanks fpr all the help!

All AVRs will output more power in 2Ch vs ALL 5Ch. For example, the AVR may output 120WPC into 2Ch, but 80WPC into all 5Ch. Unless you use the 5Ch Stereo DSP mode, you usually do NOT have to worry so much. The front Left and Right speakers often require the most power. The Center and surround speakers usually don't.

Bottom line, you may not need any external amps.

But it usually doesn't hurt either if you added a 150-200WPC amp.

 

[bang4bucker]

hi robin,
i believe you're doing it in a wrong way. my only advice is this : buy a good subwoofer.

first, with a sub and high pass filters for speakers you're freeing heavy duty of your avr to pump up heavy bass.

second, manufacturers cheat A LOT about sensitivity and impedance of their speakers. we don't know about their impedance and phase angle graphs. those low frequency, low impedance and high phase angle will SUCK the power from your avr. even if you have 100 wpc avr, it could mean nothing if those conditions are met. also your avr is not rated for 4 ohm all channels driven

and third, with a sub, your woofers won't need to move much. less movements, less distortion, less 2nd harmonic, less muddy on midrange when played loud.

you're building a HT system so a sub is a must. buy a good sub first and we'll see how it goes.

 

[Robin Wikström]

hi robin,
i believe you're doing it in a wrong way. my only advice is this : buy a good subwoofer.

first, with a sub and high pass filters for speakers you're freeing heavy duty of your avr to pump up heavy bass.

second, manufacturers cheat A LOT about sensitivity and impedance of their speakers. we don't know about their impedance and phase angle graphs. those low frequency, low impedance and high phase angle will SUCK the power from your avr. even if you have 100 wpc avr, it could mean nothing if those conditions are met. also your avr is not rated for 4 ohm all channels driven

and third, with a sub, your woofers won't need to move much. less movements, less distortion, less 2nd harmonic, less muddy on midrange when played loud.

you're building a HT system so a sub is a must. buy a good sub first and we'll see how it goes.

Okey thank you for the tip! I have looked on subs but I can't find one in my price range.
Maybe the main reason I started this thread was because I wanted to know how high I could play the system without it braking(still want to know ), but now I have got a bit more understanding and I belive that maybe an amp isn't the way to go.

 

[markw]

You won't know until you hit that limit. Too many variables to pinpoint an exact answer.

Like one poster said, if it starts to sound bad, turn it down immediately.

But, trying to get satisfying bass from an HT system you admittedly intend to play loudly without a subwoofer is asking for trouble.