Why Audio Amplifiers Can Sound Different

Do you think amplifiers can sound different?

  • Yes. Count me in!

    Votes: 27 77.1%
  • No way, not unless they are being overdriven.

    Votes: 5 14.3%
  • What did you say? I can't hear too good.

    Votes: 3 8.6%

  • Total voters
    35
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Amplifier "sound" is a divisive topic in the audiophile community. Some would claim that amplifiers have a sonic signature, while others state that all "well designed" amplifiers will sound the same when operating within their limits. However, even within the latter camp, it is accepted that amplifiers *can* sound different from one another. Why might that be the case? We've gotten some thoughts from Paul Ceurvels, Senior Electrical Engineer at Atlantic Technology. Be sure to check out our YouTube discussion on this topic as well and let us know what you think in our forum.


Read: Why Audio Amplifiers Can Sound Different

Have you heard differences in amplifiers? Share your experiences here.
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Does this mean I'll finally stop getting flamed every time I post on here about stuff sounding different but measuring the same, given the limited set of traditional measurements?

And that likewise the people who keep stating they don't hear differences might acknowledge their hearing is simply not as sensitive as others who do hear differences?

Sorry for opening that way but those strong responses to my previous posts have driven me away from this forum more than once. I have listened to many DACs, pre-amps, amps, speakers, etc. and differences in sound character are immediate and obvious to me.

In addition to this square wave measurement, I would like to see phase measurements taken more seriously as to their impact on sound.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Does this mean I'll finally stop getting flamed every time I post on here about stuff sounding different but measuring the same, given the limited set of traditional measurements?
Probably won't stop them. I sit somewhere in the middle.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Does this mean I'll finally stop getting flamed every time I post on here about stuff sounding different but measuring the same, given the limited set of traditional measurements?

And that likewise the people who keep stating they don't hear differences might acknowledge their hearing is simply not as sensitive as others who do hear differences?

Sorry for opening that way but those strong responses to my previous posts have driven me away from this forum more than once. I have listened to many DACs, pre-amps, amps, speakers, etc. and differences in sound character are immediate and obvious to me.

In addition to this square wave measurement, I would like to see phase measurements taken more seriously as to their impact on sound.
You won't get an argument from me about gear sounding different. Even with my engineering background field testing has often proven we don't know everything about human preferences.

The square wave stuff is something I will look more closely into but any misbehavior in that regard should surface with FFT analysis which I always do when testing amplifiers.

thanks for the comments.
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
wow , nice articular . i used to get flamed badly on this subject ( quite a few years ago ) on the forum . I personally have not changed my Amps in quite a few years now , being very happy with the tube amp from you and Audioholics . I did run into a great deal from a friend on a trade for 70 cuban cigars , i got some totem Arros for my bedroom to go with the tube amp . But my 4b is still running as good as always and my Carver is still pumping the sound .
All i can say is if you can pickup some reasonably priced used amps , try them out . you might find one you will really like .
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
From the article, "Maybe the golden ears at the tweak magazines have really been hearing something all along—they just couldn’t identify it or measure it. Maybe this is it."- But that didn't stop them form using words that bore no resemblance to the differences they heard.

In the '70s, the magazines ran tests of amplifiers with square wave and the ones that didn't overshoot usually had some amount of ringing. Sometimes, it was symmetrical, sometimes it wasn't. Harmon Kardon and Sansui touted their Direct-Coupled designs and Sansui especially, let everyone know their amps had a higher slew rate than many others. Consumer Reports loved both brands, but they didn't see how many of these receivers came in for service, either. The Sansui R-series were so bad that one of our service techs quipped "They put the output transistors in to protect the fuses".

Anyone who remembers Len Feldman also remembers that he was seen as an expert. He was one of the members of the "All amps that are running in their normal operating range sound alike" and then, somehow, he changed his tune. I don't remember who or what made him change, but he was adamant about this and those of us from the stereo shop where we worked discussed this with him at an event where he was featured.

I didn't go to school for electronics, but I have learned a lot in the last 40+ years of working with this equipment. While I have always been able to hear details, I have never been so neurotic about the sound that I was willing to spend all of my money in an attempt to have "the best" and often tell people to "listen to the music, not the equipment".

Having many friends who are electrical/electronic engineers has been a real benefit and the discussions we have had were extremely informative for me. Part of my interest has to do with old tube guitar amps and one thing that I have learned is that it's possible to make some small changes and it WILL be audible. From changing the output devices, filter caps, component tolerances and power supply configuration to the amount of NFB or lead dress, it's audible. Sometimes, an amp will oscillate when it isn't expected, but not hard to cause. Sometimes, all of the best intent brings harshness or grit to the sound. Sometimes, it's just a matter of using better outputs that work in the same configuration as the original ones or changing the bias. I just bought a Parasound amp and in some YouTube videos, John Curl talks about eliminating the 7th harmonic. I haven't seen the square wave response, but I would assume it's pretty good. I don't hear an edgy sound but I do hear details and dynamics I never did with the Denon AVR I was using.

FWIW.
 
J

John Sully

Enthusiast
I voted yes, but most often, as in the cited case, it comes down to plain old freqency response. BTW, I owned the receiver version of the second one of these, the NAD 7240PE. It was an absolutely brilliant little receiver.
 
hk2000

hk2000

Junior Audioholic
No way! Then again, there are some who believe you can affect machines with your mind alone. All I know is that perception is a whole lot more powerful than people who believe this are willing to admit.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
The square waves which were shown in the 'scope traces were of modules that would not be found in an amplifier (power amp) unless they were part of some sort of hybridized contraption. Hence, IMO, the article fails in making the case for amps sounding different. It's also overly simplistic, deals in irrelevancies unrelated to the central theme, highly anecdotal with an absence of full disclosure and an absence of anything resembling controlled listening evaluations. This is not to say there aren't factors like output impedance that can audibly affect the perception of sound. Or that an amp may be prone to oscillation with certain speaker loads. While one can't test an amp into every possible speaker that exists, it's my opinion that something like a 3 meter length of Alpha Goertz speaker wire, which has an extraordinary capacitance, can serve as a poor man's stress test. Maybe even something that could be used while bench testing, Gene?

Oh, and let us not forget that NAD has also been known as Not Always Defective.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
When you say 'flame", do you mean being denigrated or called names?

Disagreement is totally expected. If you don't hear any significant differences, then you don't here it. If you hear it, then you hear it.

We have no way of knowing for sure what other people can or cannot hear under the exact circumstances.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Oh, and let us not forget that NAD has also been known as Not Always Defective.
That's a good one. Never thought of that. :D

I've never owned NAD.

Are they often defective in your experience?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I voted that amps can sound different but there is always a measured result that will indicate this. The article clearly states that things measured showed an "upward tilt" so something "measured" did account for the perceived sonic difference. :) Everything heard can me measured but to what level of detail in measurements will be accepted in the audio community, particularily the audio reviewers. I'll stick to my guns that amps will sound sound the same operating within their limits and that measure the same. If they sound different, there's a reason for it.


I don't understand why square waves and impulse response tests are not used on amplifiers. These tests will reveal so much.
 
Last edited:
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
That's a good one. Never thought of that. :D

I've never owned NAD.

Are they often defective in your experience?
There was a period of time, maybe 10 years or so ago, when a lot of issues were being reported. In fact, in one of StereoPhile's review of an amp, they received a clunker. What they're like today, I don't know. Don't seem to hear much about them. I think there's also been some ownership changes and as to what that entails in terms of where they source their products from, I don't know. Remember, there was a time when the car company Fiat was crap. Come to think of it, they still are.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
When you say 'flame", do you mean being denigrated or called names?

Disagreement is totally expected. If you don't hear any significant differences, then you don't here it. If you hear it, then you hear it.

We have no way of knowing for sure what other people can or cannot hear under the exact circumstances.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Like something that has a wide bandwidth.
Not sure what the output iron allows specifically, but it's not bad for the breed. That trace is from a home-brew 0.75 watt single ended triode tube amp composed of about $250 in various bits and pieces.

Surprised?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Like something that has a wide bandwidth.
Yep.....If it was bandwidth limited, there would be less slope (not as verticle and the transition between vertical to horizontal will be rounded
 
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