Get Burned in the Latest Format War? Make Red just like Blu

A

admin

Audioholics Robot
Staff member
It is bad enough that a transition from SD/480i prerecorded content is asking consumers to shell out more money for the same movies in HD/1080p, but at least there is an improvement in video and audio quality for the additional cost. But because the movie studios and the hardware manufacturers couldn’t all agree, they split up and offered two incompatible containers, Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, which provide the same HD/1080p movies, and then pulled the plug on one container format after passing some cash around amongst themselves.


Discuss "Get Burned in the Latest Format War? Make Red just like Blu" here. Read the article.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
im of the thought that even the phyiscal media war will be over within 10 years. With downloads becoming the standard, and hardware players becoming a thing of the past. Dont get me wrong it wont happen overnight, but it should happen
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
im of the thought that even the phyiscal media war will be over within 10 years. With downloads becoming the standard, and hardware players becoming a thing of the past. Dont get me wrong it wont happen overnight, but it should happen
I can't tell you how happy I would be if, in the next 10 years, they made internet access available here that is fast enough to make downloads practical. Don't think it is going to happen. That's life in the country.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
It is bad enough that a transition from SD/480i prerecorded content is asking consumers to shell out more money for the same movies in HD/1080p, but at least there is an improvement in video and audio quality for the additional cost. But because the movie studios and the hardware manufacturers couldn’t all agree, they split up and offered two incompatible containers, Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, which provide the same HD/1080p movies, and then pulled the plug on one container format after passing some cash around amongst themselves.


Discuss "Get Burned in the Latest Format War? Make Red just like Blu" here. Read the article.
Can anyone say Rube Goldberg! Total pointless waste of time.
 

Attachments

J

JackT

Audioholic
But because the movie studios and the hardware manufacturers couldn’t all agree, they split up and offered two incompatible containers, Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, which provide the same HD/1080p movies, and then pulled the plug on one container format after passing some cash around amongst themselves.
What bothers me about articles like this is that they imply that we were not FULLY AWARE that one of the formats would lose when we decided to become early adopters. There is also the implication that it would have been better that both formats persist, even though, BEFORE HD-DVD lost, the format war was regularly lamented.

"Pulled the plug... after passing some cash around amongst themselves"? Is that really an accurate depiction of what happened? Didn't HD-DVD get outsold 2:1, after starting out with a sizable disadvantage in studio support?
 
"Pulled the plug... after passing some cash around amongst themselves"? Is that really an accurate depiction of what happened? Didn't HD-DVD get outsold 2:1, after starting out with a sizable disadvantage in studio support?
Toshiba got outspent. Plain and simple. This war was not won by consumer choice. It was won by back-door deals and overblown marketing budgets.

If you took consumers and truly put them in front of, say the HD-A35 and the Sony BDP-S300 you would likely get the following comparison:

  • Hmmm.. both players look exactly the same for HD movies
  • Interesting, the Toshiba has an Ethernet port and can be updated online as well as grab new online content for discs
  • Both players seem to suck as upconverting DVD players...
  • Both players cost the same...
  • I have an option to get a few less features but save money on a lower priced player with HD DVD... not so with Blu-ray, this is their entry-level machine.
The consumer never made the comparison - the studios made the decision for everyone. Not saying anything more than that one way or another, but it's silly to think that consumers chose the winning format.

The thing missing from above was that the movie selections were always different. When that is the case, consumers automatically lose control right from the start.
 
J

JackT

Audioholic
Toshiba got outspent. Plain and simple. This war was not won by consumer choice. It was won by back-door deals and overblown marketing budgets.
So consumers did NOT preferentially chose BR over HD-DVD?
 
DavidW

DavidW

Audioholics Contributing Writer
"Pulled the plug... after passing some cash around amongst themselves"? Is that really an accurate depiction of what happened? Didn't HD-DVD get outsold 2:1, after starting out with a sizable disadvantage in studio support?
You didn't follow the link embedded in the text you quoted, did you?

BusinessWeek:

Denial of a Bidding War
BusinessWeek reported in December that both DVD camps were offering Warner cash and incentives in exchange for exclusive support (BusinessWeek, 12/6/07). One source reported that Toshiba had offered to pay more than $100 million, while Sony bid closer to $400 million. But Meyer denied there was a bidding war and said Warner instead looked solely at global sales of both formats in making its decision. "The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger," he said.

Hmmm....

The studio denies a payoff while a very reputable business news source has information that says otherwise. And BusinessWeek is not the only place I've seen this.

Decide for yourself as to the veracity of the opposing claims of a payoff.

The prerecorded media business is a very high stakes game totaling $30 billion in the US and over $40 billion world wide.

Naïveté only follows belief in one of the two claims.

I lay odds on the consumer never having had a choice.

And a two to one sale advantage on miniscule HD disc sales is the consumer ignoring the format war, not choosing the winner.
 
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S

Sesquipedalian

Enthusiast
Consumers could control things if everyone stuck together. Unfortunately that does not happen. If everyone banded together now and did not buy any Blu Ray players they would be up the creek.

Although unrelated to this forum, I can remember many many years ago coffee prices increasing a lot and instead of letting it sit on the shelf people were scooping it off the shelves into baskets before the price went up again.

Unfortunately in situations like this it would require some sacrifice but in the end the consumer could be the one that determines what happens.
 
J

JackT

Audioholic
And a two to one sale advantage on miniscule HD disc sales is the consumer ignoring the format war, not choosing the winner.
That is a ludicrous statement. What if HD-DVD had outsold BR 2:1? Would the outcome have been the same?

Also, are you claiming the format war was a GOOD thing? Because I remember right here at Audioholics much gnashing of teeth about how bad the format war was for the consumer. BUT no format war means EVEN LESS chance for the consumer to decide, the decision having been made ENTIRELY by industry before hand. Which is it?

What about competing formats for CD? DVD? Those were created by industry consortiums at the outset.

The truth is, the consumer had MORE choice in the HD disc format that he usually gets, and the very fact of this choice (i.e. the format war) was NOT welcomed when it materialized.
 
E

en sabur nur

Audioholic Intern
And a two to one sale advantage on [I said:
miniscule[/I] HD disc sales is the consumer ignoring the format war, not choosing the winner.
Preach, brother!
 
DavidW

DavidW

Audioholics Contributing Writer
That is a ludicrous statement. What if HD-DVD had outsold BR 2:1? Would the outcome have been the same?
Inverting 2:1 for BD or HD-DVD is irrelivant, sales were miniscule compared to SD DVD which chugged away with mainstream consumers.

High-def discs lag standard, but gaining momentum
Blu-ray sales top 1.5 million units so far this year


Comparing the first two years of each format, HD optical disc sales as of 2007 are are half of SD DVD sales as of 1998, 8.3 million verses 16.3 million.

According to the MPAA, DVD sold 1140.2 million units in total as of 2006 and sold slightly less, 1092 million units, in 2007.

Here is the math on HD verses total disc sales for 2007:

(8.3/(8.3+1092))*100 = 0.75%​

So, 100-0.75 = 99.25% of the market choose SD DVD rather than HD-DVD+BD combined.

Perhaps Warner would have sided with HD-DVD if things were reversed with BD, but with less than a 1% market share for HD, consumers were clearly choosing SD DVD. So Warner had to choose one side or the other as the only possible way to consolidate HD to take on SD DVD, which they said as much in the original press statement.

The truth is, the consumer had MORE choice in the HD disc format that he usually gets, and the very fact of this choice (i.e. the format war) was NOT welcomed when it materialized.
The choice was an illusion and it was not welcome because it was marketed by both sides as a fight to the death, clearly indicating to consumers a wrong choice would only get them screwed.

The upside for the consumer, even if it was not apprciated, was a rapid decrease in hardware prices that did not occur as soon with the introduction of DVD. It also accelerated quality improvements in BD after early releases in both formats showed BD video quality substantially trailing HD-DVD. Lets not forget titles like The Fifth Element that were barely better than the DVD version and so widely condemed that Sony actually remastered it and offered a free exchange. With a single format, irrespective of which one, there would not have been any pressure to put out the best quality out of the gate, much like some early DVD masters that were nowhere near what the format could provide, just as good as they had to be to oust VHS.

The studios claim the market choose the winning format based on sales representing less than 1% of the total home video market. A flimsy collection of enthusiast early adopters do not represent the market.

Certainly more than one market analyist also has said that the format war was won by the studios and not consumers:

Analyst says consumers didn't end format war

How Blu-Ray Won the Fight and Why It Probably Won’t Matter

With studios dividing up contnet support between the two formats, there never was competition between the formats.

The competition was between which group of movies were perferred. And with less than a 1% market share, the format war was decided long before the mainstream consumer was even involved.

It is ludicruous to believe otherwise when one looks at the actual numbers.
 
J

JackT

Audioholic
David,

I don't agree that consumers "ignored" the HD disc formats. I think you can only claim this to the extent they have "ignored" HD in general.

I say this based on adoption rates for HD disc formats compared to that of DVD at the same point after inception. If memory serves (and it may not), sales of players match or even exceed that for DVD at the same point, whereas the sales of discs is roughly half. (Hope I have that right.)

But to make a REAL comparison, you have to keep in mind that the market size at comparable points in time is roughly one quarter what it was for DVD. (i.e. there are only a fraction of HD capable homes now then there were SD capable homes back whenever.)

So, the adoption rate for HD media has been fairly good, it seems to me. You can only say the consumer has ignored these media by also claiming they have ignored HDTV also.

Without dragging this back-and-forth out too much longer, I just want to further make the point that, fundamentally, my negative reaction to articles like this stems largely from my strong suspicion that this article would have been written REGARDLESS of how the war turned out.

I mean, that is the narrative the media were always going to push, right? The consumer got screwed by the man? It was always going to be a new Betamax fiasco regardless of what happened. Except with Betamax, the story was that consumer choice didn't work because the dummies chose the "wrong" one. (Complete BS in my opinion.) Now we have a conspiracy theory where the consumer didn't really have a choice, an assertion that requires dismissal of the actual sales data by saying they are too small to mean anything. This is also the reason for breathlessly focusing on tales of "payoffs" to studios, as if the job of a format consortium goes much beyond lining up content provider support, because the consumer demands such support on a broad level.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Ironically Betamax is still around, used by professional broadcasters still ,now called Betacam. VHS is gone.
 
D

Dezoris

Audioholic
Toshiba got outspent. Plain and simple. This war was not won by consumer choice. It was won by back-door deals and overblown marketing budgets.

If you took consumers and truly put them in front of, say the HD-A35 and the Sony BDP-S300 you would likely get the following comparison:

  • Hmmm.. both players look exactly the same for HD movies
  • Interesting, the Toshiba has an Ethernet port and can be updated online as well as grab new online content for discs
  • Both players seem to suck as upconverting DVD players...
  • Both players cost the same...
  • I have an option to get a few less features but save money on a lower priced player with HD DVD... not so with Blu-ray, this is their entry-level machine.
The consumer never made the comparison - the studios made the decision for everyone. Not saying anything more than that one way or another, but it's silly to think that consumers chose the winning format.

The thing missing from above was that the movie selections were always different. When that is the case, consumers automatically lose control right from the start.
You didn't follow the link embedded in the text you quoted, did you?

BusinessWeek:

Denial of a Bidding War
BusinessWeek reported in December that both DVD camps were offering Warner cash and incentives in exchange for exclusive support (BusinessWeek, 12/6/07). One source reported that Toshiba had offered to pay more than $100 million, while Sony bid closer to $400 million. But Meyer denied there was a bidding war and said Warner instead looked solely at global sales of both formats in making its decision. "The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger," he said.

Hmmm....

The studio denies a payoff while a very reputable business news source has information that says otherwise. And BusinessWeek is not the only place I've seen this.

Decide for yourself as to the veracity of the opposing claims of a payoff.

The prerecorded media business is a very high stakes game totaling $30 billion in the US and over $40 billion world wide.

Naïveté only follows belief in one of the two claims.

I lay odds on the consumer never having had a choice.

And a two to one sale advantage on miniscule HD disc sales is the consumer ignoring the format war, not choosing the winner.
While I respect your opinions, the bottom line is Toshiba chose the wrong partners on this project. They had no support in there home market almost exclusively because it was a Microsoft co-op.

In the USA they had a chance almost 2 years ago before Blu-Ray existed with Microsoft who never took the project seriously. They had little support right from the beginning whether you want to say it was money or marketing they had no foundation from the hardware or studio side.

The rest of the planet was also skewed heavily toward Blu-Ray. Whether you want to debate how small the HD market share is compared to DVD right now, the same argument was in the field when DVD came in. While the numbers were much higher then it also had a better launch with cheaper players and no format confusion.

Mark my words you will see a $99 BluRay player devoid of features in the next 18 months and as long as it plays DVDs you will see people converting over and buying a bulk of their movies in BluRay.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Toshiba got outspent. Plain and simple. This war was not won by consumer choice. It was won by back-door deals and overblown marketing budgets.
Yes - and knowing the people involed with this format war, some people seem to be 'shocked' that this occurred!

Between Bose and Monster, everyone on this site should know that marketing sells above all else, yet seem shocked when they find out it actually works.

If you took consumers and truly put them in front of, say the HD-A35 and the Sony BDP-S300 you would likely get the following comparison:

  • Hmmm.. both players look exactly the same for HD movies
  • Interesting, the Toshiba has an Ethernet port and can be updated online as well as grab new online content for discs
  • Both players seem to suck as upconverting DVD players...
  • Both players cost the same...
  • I have an option to get a few less features but save money on a lower priced player with HD DVD... not so with Blu-ray, this is their entry-level machine.
Consumers rarely do things like this, and there are other comparisons they do make which you left off which are of very signicant importance to the average consumer:

Is it from one of my favorite manufacturers?
Why are there 5 different Blu-ray players, yet only Toshiba making HD DVD?
Blu-ray costs more across the board, so it must be a 'better' product.

The consumer never made the comparison - the studios made the decision for everyone. Not saying anything more than that one way or another, but it's silly to think that consumers chose the winning format.
A consumer who walks into a store clueless, doesn't know diddly about studios, and they buy (and they did!) Blu-ray because of CE support. In the real world, on store shelves, Blu-ray occupied five times the floor space of HD DVD. The consumer saw their favorite brand (Sony most often) and then said "Who the heck is Toshiba?" before walking out with their new player.

The online consumer could do their homework and see that the studio support was in the Blu-ray corner by a fair margin, and more often went with the Blu-ray format.

YET: At the end of 2007, it was the consumer spending twice as much on Blu-ray players and BD selling more players than HD DVD that made studios make a decision.

If you think that studios helping to hasten the end of this format war is a bad thing you are seriously mistaken. Your own words are that nobody likes a format war, so the end of the format war is something good for everyone. Now they can get on to 2.0 players, and competition between CE manunfacturers with the new target not being $100 HD DVD players, but $30 DVD players.

The thing missing from above was that the movie selections were always different. When that is the case, consumers automatically lose control right from the start.
Consumers never have control. Why would you think otherwise? If you like the styling of the Corvette, but hate Chevy, can you buy the Toyota version instead? If you like Halo, but hate Microsoft, can you get the Wii version instead? If you like the iPhone, but hate AT&T, can you get the Verizon version instead?

Rarely do consumers get to make their own choice from a 100% option field. We are always left with certain compromises to be made. Now, at least, you have a choice other than 'Toshiba' for your HD optical disc player... which alone is enough reason for me to consider it all a good thing.
 
Ironically Betamax is still around, used by professional broadcasters still ,now called Betacam. VHS is gone.
Betacam and Betamax aren't the same, but it's definitely a derivative. Most of those guys have (hopefully) at least switched to DigiBeta by now...
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
Not saying anything more than that one way or another, but it's silly to think that consumers chose the winning format.
Of the hundred plus titles that were available on both formats, every MOVIE sold better on the Blu-ray format.

To me, that's the consumer picking a format.

What is silly is for people to suggest that all studios should have supported both formats and expecting the results to somehow be different than the sales Paramount, Dreamworks, New Line and Warner experienced.

Shooter, Disturbia, 300, Blood Diamond, The Departed, etc., etc., etc., all sold better on Blu-ray. If the consumer wasn't buying them, who was?

And all these backdoor deals other than the $50 million to Viacom and $100 million to Dreamworks, which even Katzenberg has concurred, are idle speculation. People can pull numbers out of their butt all day, but with the exception of the aforementioned deals there is nothing either way that points to any deals ending the format war. Marketing, well that much is obvious. Toshiba definitely got outdone in the marketing department. Not surprising when pretty much ALL other major CE's are behind Blu-ray, two years before Sony decided upon Blu-ray for the PS3.

The retailers, the studios, they want a new revenue media to succeed too. You don't need a bribe to support the format that most people can see quite clearly, after winning 60+ weeks of software sales in a row, is the most viable format for mass market adoption, not when that industry is worth over $20 billion.
 
DavidW

DavidW

Audioholics Contributing Writer
David,

I don't agree that consumers "ignored" the HD disc formats. I think you can only claim this to the extent they have "ignored" HD in general.

I say this based on adoption rates for HD disc formats compared to that of DVD at the same point after inception. If memory serves (and it may not), sales of players match or even exceed that for DVD at the same point, whereas the sales of discs is roughly half. (Hope I have that right.)

But to make a REAL comparison, you have to keep in mind that the market size at comparable points in time is roughly one quarter what it was for DVD. (i.e. there are only a fraction of HD capable homes now then there were SD capable homes back whenever.)

So, the adoption rate for HD media has been fairly good, it seems to me. You can only say the consumer has ignored these media by also claiming they have ignored HDTV also.

Without dragging this back-and-forth out too much longer, I just want to further make the point that, fundamentally, my negative reaction to articles like this stems largely from my strong suspicion that this article would have been written REGARDLESS of how the war turned out.

I mean, that is the narrative the media were always going to push, right? The consumer got screwed by the man? It was always going to be a new Betamax fiasco regardless of what happened. Except with Betamax, the story was that consumer choice didn't work because the dummies chose the "wrong" one. (Complete BS in my opinion.) Now we have a conspiracy theory where the consumer didn't really have a choice, an assertion that requires dismissal of the actual sales data by saying they are too small to mean anything. This is also the reason for breathlessly focusing on tales of "payoffs" to studios, as if the job of a format consortium goes much beyond lining up content provider support, because the consumer demands such support on a broad level.
Actually, you are completely off base for two reasons.

I am not part of the media in the sense that you refer to as I am not a professional journalist, I am an engineer who also happens to write for a technically oriented audio/video site.

The point of the article was to relate the technical information that is available to convert between two media formats that are identical on a fundamental technical level, but differ to incompatability only in details of implementation.
As an engineer, I am frustrated that the war had to occur in the first place, for technical reasons, and not for just the typical media everyman spin.

Both foramats have the same 1080p video resolution, they both support the same video encoding schemes, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1, and they support the same audio encoding schemes, Dolby Digital, Digital+, TrueHD, DTS, DTS HD, and DTS HD MA.

The only two differences are the physical structure of the disc where BD uses smaller divits for the data with a tighter track pitch to cram more in and the data file structure, ie the order that the data is stored in those divits. Both of which are inconsequenetial to end user experience who will get 1080p video.

As contnet that was previsously only available on HD-DVD migrates to BD, everyone who buys the BD version will get the identical audio and video encode from the HD-DVD version run essentially through the process I just outlined. It would be a silly waste of money for the studios to reencode the original video back into the same codec. You can expect that to occur down the road when the studios want to resell it again when they will claim that the reencode would make for an improved special edition, and even then, they might not.

You have read way too much into the article or you only really read certain parts an imbuded them with your own spin through interpretation.

As to sales data, HD players at the height of holiday discounting were less than 10% of the sales for DVD players.

High-def player sales still just 10% of standard DVD
DisplaySearch: Discounting gave HD DVD two-thirds of next-gen holiday sales


There is no dismissal of sales numbers, people were not buying in and Warner said as much:

Not only did neigher format really take off as expected in the fourth quarter, but standard-def was softer than expected given the release slate,” said Warner Home Video president Ron Sanders told VB in explaining the studio’s decision. “We’re seeing research now that shows that consumers are starting to delay purchases because of the format war, not just on high-def, but on standard-def purchases as well. That’s alarming.”​
“Warner Bros.’ move to exclusivity release in the Blu-ray Disc format is a strategic decision focused on the long term and the most direct way to give consumers what they want,” said Warner chair and CEO Barry Meyer. “The window of opportunity for high-definition DVD could be missed if format confusion continues to linger. We believe that exclusively distributing in Blu-ray will further the potential for mass market success and ultimately benefit retailers, producers and, most importantly, consumers.”

“A two-format landscape has led to consumer confusion and indifference toward high-definition, which has kept the technology from reaching mass adoption and becoming the important revenue stream that it can be for the industry,” said Kevin Tsujihara, president of Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group. “Consumers have clearly chosen Blu-ray, and we believe that recognizing this preference is the right step in making this great home entertainment experience accessible to the widest possible audience. Warner Bros. has worked very closely with the Toshiba Corp. in promoting high-definition media, and we have enormous respect for their efforts. We look forward to working with them in the future.”

Look at the double speak about consumer indifference side by side with consumers clearly choosing BD. Warner took miniscule sales data that showed preference for BD among early adopters and extrapolated it to say consumers clearly choose BD while simultaneouly saying they had to pick one for the consumer in an attempt to jump start the HD disc market before downloads come along to dominate with smaller profit margins, just like what has happened to the music industry.

Why early high-def disc adoption rates don't really matter

Battle between Blu-ray and HD DVD fizzles as consumers watch and wait

While Warner repeats statements about consumer preference, in the end, all the consumer wants is HD quality video, he does not care which version of an otherwise identical shinny disc it comes on, looks just like old CDs and DVDs. The only benefit to the consumer is that now the choice is clearer which way to get HD without further worry that the compatable machine will go the way of the dodo because of the war.

Think what you want, but this fight never got to Joe Sixpack and that is what the sales numbers say.
 
B

Buckeye_Nut

Audioholic Field Marshall
It doesn't really matter to me.....

What I want to know is how I can get me one of 'dem purdy yellow Camaro's!!!!
(preferably one without the HD-DVD logo)

HEH
 
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