Musical Subwoofers

[EdR]

<font color='#000000'>Hi,

I posted this in the Axiom forums, but also would very much appreciate all of your ideas about this: &nbsp;BTW- Alan, their resident expert makes a strong case for surround, even for a music only system. &nbsp;I believe that Audioholics linked to his rather excellent article on the inherent flaws in stereo.
-----

As I've indicated in my other posts, I'm in the process of defining a music listening room.  The electronics I'm considering are the upcoming Arcam AVR 300, which is a 7x100 channel receiver.  If one is running a 5.1 system, two of the channels can be combined to bi-amp the speakers, which I understand is a good thing. I have been paying attention to Alans replies to me, and this give me the options of starting with high quality stereo, but allow me to upgrade to surround audio later without losing anything-a nice 'eat my cake and have it too'.

Having three free high quality amp channels opens up some interesting subwoofer possiblities.  From what I've been reading, two subs are preferable for the best music reproduction, but rather expensive.  However, I could get 2 unpowered subs for about the same money as one high quality powered one, such as the REL Strata, to explore that option.

Anyone ever explored this?  HSU makes the unpowered TN-1220HO which claims a FR of +/- 1db from 18-100 HZ, which should be quite musical.  I could have two of these for about a grand.  Of course, I could also have 2 VTF-2's for about the same price, and I'm not sure that flat to 1 db vs. flat to 2 db would make any practical difference in my enjoyment of the music.  

Any ideas for subwoofers for a music only system?</font>

 

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'>I hesitate to reply for fear of being labelled a shill for Hsu, but since you mentioned that model by name, I do have a pair of TN 1220s, and I find them to be superb for music. &nbsp;I have them each powered by a 500 W Hsu amp and they're fed by a Behringer Parametric EQ.

Once you have them properly setup &amp; calibrated (the setup is very important, with this and any other sub) you never hear the subwoofer, just the bass.

Just my $.02 worth.</font>

 

[EdR]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks,

I had a fairly lengthly email conversation with Dr. Hsu this afternoon, and came away very impressed. &nbsp;Sounds like the same set up you've got would do the trick rather nicely, and to meet a company head who actually answers his email, listened to what I was saying, and offered truly helpful advice was a good indication of the company.

Now the open questions is... towers or reference monitors..</font>

 

[Guest]

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EdR : <font color='#000000'>Hi,

I posted this in the Axiom forums, but also would very much appreciate all of your ideas about this:  BTW- Alan, their resident expert makes a strong case for surround, even for a music only system.  I believe that Audioholics linked to his rather excellent article on the inherent flaws in stereo.
-----

As I've indicated in my other posts, I'm in the process of defining a music listening room.  The electronics I'm considering are the upcoming Arcam AVR 300, which is a 7x100 channel receiver.  If one is running a 5.1 system, two of the channels can be combined to bi-amp the speakers, which I understand is a good thing. I have been paying attention to Alans replies to me, and this give me the options of starting with high quality stereo, but allow me to upgrade to surround audio later without losing anything-a nice 'eat my cake and have it too'.

Having three free high quality amp channels opens up some interesting subwoofer possiblities.  From what I've been reading, two subs are preferable for the best music reproduction, but rather expensive.  However, I could get 2 unpowered subs for about the same money as one high quality powered one, such as the REL Strata, to explore that option.

Anyone ever explored this?  HSU makes the unpowered TN-1220HO which claims a FR of +/- 1db from 18-100 HZ, which should be quite musical.  I could have two of these for about a grand.  Of course, I could also have 2 VTF-2's for about the same price, and I'm not sure that flat to 1 db vs. flat to 2 db would make any practical difference in my enjoyment of the music.  

Any ideas for subwoofers for a music only system?</font>

<font color='#000000'>I also agree about the benefits of musical subs. I have a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq s which are $2450 and I believe less than the REL which I have not heard. They are very tight and integrate well. Walter Booker's CD Booker's Cookbook on Mapleshade records has an excellent standup bass and is superbly recorded. It is a good test disc. Also, Richard Hardesty's Audio Perfectionist journal has a good discussion of subs if you haven't already found it. The Vandys are powered and have adjustable q and crossovers.

In re surround vs. stereo I am less sold. IMHO the center channel detracts in the sweet spot and the soundstage tends to collapse for me. I tend to listen to music in four channel with the the fronts L+C and R+C or in stereo. I just got an SACD and have yet to compare 2CH vs 5CH SACD.

Good Hunting</font>

 

[RX-V2400]

<font color='#000000'>I agree about the distraction of the center channel. Let us know how you find the SADC</font>

 

[abe]

<font color='#000000'>two subs are most frequently mentioned in audiophile circle: Vandy 2Wq and REL Strata III and both cost about $1k used.
I have the REL and it is extremely tight and fast therefore superb for music.   It also has low pass input so can work well with all the multichannel formats (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.).  The 2Wq, unfortunaltely, won't work with DD/DTS as it has high pass input only.

Abe</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Abe,
I didn't quite follow. The Vandy's wire abit differenltly than most and see a high pass signal but their amp is made for receiving that and compensating. I play all DD and DTS through them and they work just great down to 8 Hz (so he claims). They also get around some of the bass management issues in lesser SACD and DVD-A players that lack since their input comes from the amplifier out to the right and left channels not the sub out of the preamp. I have heard REL and a few others are similar. This allows the fronts set to large and the main speakers don't see much below the adjustable crossover (applied between the prepro and amp). One does need pre out amp in on a receiver to do this.</font>

 

[abe]

<font color='#000000'>Hi Dan, &nbsp; I don't have first hand experience with 2Wq. From what I read it seems 2Wq won't take the LFE output (the .1 channel), rather you will have to get low frequency from the main amp using high pass filter. &nbsp;

REL, on the other hand, has both high pass AND low pass input. &nbsp;This is the main reason I chose REL so I can use it for music and home theater.


Abe</font>

 

[bombadil67]

<font color='#000000'>You might find this interesting:

www.audioc.com

Go to &quot;powered subs&quot; then the Titan, then a link &quot;ACI vs. REL subs&quot; towards bottom of page.

You could buy two NEW Force subs for about $1500, the Titans start at $1050ea. new.

Bottom line: Their both very good, but ones much cheaper!</font>

 

[EdR]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

bombadil67 : <font color='#000000'>You might find this interesting:

www.audioc.com

Go to &quot;powered subs&quot; then the Titan, then a link &quot;ACI vs. REL subs&quot; towards bottom of page.

You could buy two NEW Force subs for about $1500, the Titans start at $1050ea. new.

Bottom line: Their both very good, but ones much cheaper!</font>

<font color='#000000'>Thanks,

Also, a pair of HSU TN 1220's with his 500 watt outboard amp and bass management runs about $1,700, and Outlaw Audio has a new sub that is supposed to be very 'tight', the LFM-1, which Hsu helped design. &nbsp;I haven't read any reviews yet, but their equipment seems to generally be excellent value for the money. &nbsp;A pair of them runs $1,000.

So some excellent sub values out there for music.</font>

 

[bombadil67]

<font color='#000000'>Your welcome EdR. &nbsp;There's no question that there are alot of options out there for you. &nbsp;I doubt you could go wrong with anything from REL, SVS, HSu, etc. &nbsp;

FWIW, I just received my Ascend Acoustics CBM-170, which I just hooked up, and am in the process of dialing in with my ACI Titan. &nbsp;I must say, even with my &quot;budget&quot; electronics, the sound, to me, is something special. . . tight and musical from top to bottom.

I sat and listened to a couple CD's, all the way through, caught myself actually listening to the music, and not the speakers. &nbsp;What more could you ask for?!?! &nbsp;Well, maybe some separates now. . . hmmm.</font>