Live recordings - soundstaging and vocal placement

[InTheValley]

Looking for opinions from anyone who enjoys live albums or appreciates accurate soundstaging in recordings. If a recording attempts to capture the imaging of a band playing in a soundstage, how do you feel about the placement of lead vocals? Do you prefer recordings where the vocals are placed where each band member was standing during the live performance? Or are lead vocals panned left or right disjarring (like the extreme vocal panning on early Beatles stereo mixes)?

I am doing pre-production for a live recording project with a bluegrass band. I've done several studio albums with this band. In the past, I have used a fairly imaginary stereo field based on two approaches. I've panned instruments and harmony vocals in the soundstage to recreate the placement of band members on stage. But for lead vocals and instrument solo breaks, I pull the vocal or instrument near-center, to create the illusion of a soloist stepping up to a center microphone. To me, this results in a hybrid of stereo panning and the old bluegrass style of performing around a single microphone. This is also how the band is mixed live through a PA and console - rhythm instruments and harmonies panned left/right, lead vocals and solos more center.

But for this project, we are discussing a more natural sound. Bluegrass music originally took old time string band music and borrowed solo breaks from jazz arrangements. We're discussing how in the late 50s and early 60s, jazz recordings had more accurate stereo fields and soundstaging than bluegrass music (which was being recorded through a single mic or experimenting with stereo techniques that seem odd now). We're getting more inspiration from the jazz recordings, and are looking at doing something that captures an accurate soundstage of the band performing in a room. But I'm not sure how it will sound as various band members perform lead vocals on different songs, and the lead vocal placement would change quite often if it truly corresponds with the band's line-up.

I apologize if this is off-topic. I know most of the threads relate to recorded music, but I wanted to get some opinions "before" the music is recorded to see what is most appropriate.

 

[highfigh]

Looking for opinions from anyone who enjoys live albums or appreciates accurate soundstaging in recordings. If a recording attempts to capture the imaging of a band playing in a soundstage, how do you feel about the placement of lead vocals? Do you prefer recordings where the vocals are placed where each band member was standing during the live performance? Or are lead vocals panned left or right disjarring (like the extreme vocal panning on early Beatles stereo mixes)?

I am doing pre-production for a live recording project with a bluegrass band. I've done several studio albums with this band. In the past, I have used a fairly imaginary stereo field based on two approaches. I've panned instruments and harmony vocals in the soundstage to recreate the placement of band members on stage. But for lead vocals and instrument solo breaks, I pull the vocal or instrument near-center, to create the illusion of a soloist stepping up to a center microphone. To me, this results in a hybrid of stereo panning and the old bluegrass style of performing around a single microphone. This is also how the band is mixed live through a PA and console - rhythm instruments and harmonies panned left/right, lead vocals and solos more center.

But for this project, we are discussing a more natural sound. Bluegrass music originally took old time string band music and borrowed solo breaks from jazz arrangements. We're discussing how in the late 50s and early 60s, jazz recordings had more accurate stereo fields and soundstaging than bluegrass music (which was being recorded through a single mic or experimenting with stereo techniques that seem odd now). We're getting more inspiration from the jazz recordings, and are looking at doing something that captures an accurate soundstage of the band performing in a room. But I'm not sure how it will sound as various band members perform lead vocals on different songs, and the lead vocal placement would change quite often if it truly corresponds with the band's line-up.

I apologize if this is off-topic. I know most of the threads relate to recorded music, but I wanted to get some opinions "before" the music is recorded to see what is most appropriate.

If you want to create an accurate representation of the positions of the musicians, consider shooting video of the performance, unless they won't be recording live. I guess you could shoot video of them preforming the same songs live and recreating their positions in the audio recording.

Beatle vocals were hard left and right because they only had four tracks to record on and the tracks were ping-ponged to allow more additions to the songs. Unless a newer recording is doing it for effect, I don't like it. WRT your comment about "accurate soundstaging", in multi-track recording where they don't record most of the song in one take, 'accuracy' is an illusion, created for the end product.

For the heck of it, check out the Return To Forever Live At Montreux 2008 show- if you have an above average system, it should interest you WRT sound quality. The last song, at around 1:35 from the end of the video has the locations of the musicians clearly set in the screen.

 

[Paudio]

I am not an expert but just posted about this album on the favorite sounding live album thread.
The engineer gives a very good description on how the recording was made in the liner notes:

“The recording was made with a main pair of matched DPA microphones in an A/B configuration. Our DPA mics have a completely identical frequency response, securing a very stable and well defined stereo image. We had spot microphones on each one of the musicians. The distance of the spot microphones were meticulously measured in relationship to the main pair and the distance was then compensated for in the mix. We always use a great deal of time perfecting the phase between the spot microphones and the main pair in order to secure a completely focused stereo recording that clearly implement the depths of the acoustics of the church and vividly portrays each instruments placement in the stereo field.”

Torsten Jessen, recording engineer.

I find the sound quality i impeccable. It is as being there at the first row.
Higly recommended!

http://www.soundliaison.com/studio-masters/253-bach-live-edition-1

 

[lovinthehd]

I am not an expert but just posted about this album on the favorite sounding live album thread.
The engineer gives a very good description on how the recording was made in the liner notes:
Torsten Jessen, recording engineer.

I find the sound quality i impeccable. It is as being there at the first row.
Higly recommended!

http://www.soundliaison.com/studio-masters/253-bach-live-edition-1

Cool, available on Spotify, too btw.

 

[Bucknekked]

Looking for opinions from anyone who enjoys live albums or appreciates accurate soundstaging in recordings. If a recording attempts to capture the imaging of a band playing in a soundstage, how do you feel about the placement of lead vocals? Do you prefer recordings where the vocals are placed where each band member was standing during the live performance? Or are lead vocals panned left or right disjarring (like the extreme vocal panning on early Beatles stereo mixes)?

If you are looking for opinions, then I can't screw this up.

The specific question was about lead vocal placement. I think the first answer received said part of what I would offer as my opinion: I don't like my vocals moving around. Its distracting. Unlike instruments which may occupy specific locations on a stage, vocals are distracting if they aren't centered or come at you like they would across a performers PA system.

That's a very long way to say, leave the vocals like a PA system. I could give lots of examples of well recorded music, and for blue grass in particular, try Raising Sand with Alison Kraus. That won a grammy for recording so its a pretty good example of how to get a blue grass band recorded.

 

[lovinthehd]

What about singers who run all over the stage instead of standing in one place?

 

[Bucknekked]

What about singers who run all over the stage instead of standing in one place?

Oh, those famous gyrating blue grass singers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, those famous gyrating blue grass singers.

Thinking more like a Mick Jagger or Steven Tyler kind of stage presence (and many others I've seen). In opera does the mic follow the action?

 

[Bucknekked]

Thinking more like a Mick Jagger or Steven Tyler kind of stage presence (and many others I've seen). In opera does the mic follow the action?

You already know more about this topic than I will ever know. You should be esplainin' it to me !

Aerosmith: We saw them last year in a private show in Vegas at the MGM Grand. The stage was shaped like a big inverted T. The top of the T was the stage, the long part extended far out in to the audience.
Steven Tyler was everywhere. Joe Perry was everywhere. But, true to concert form, Joe Perry's amp and speakers never moved from the right side of the stage. Steven Tyler was all over everywhere, but the PA system never moved.

I think TLS Guy referred to concert sound as a "wall of sound" that comes at the audience without stage location specifics. That's pretty good. The PA system doesn't move around just because Steven Tyler does. Joe Perry runs all over, but his amp & speaker cabinet never moves. For a concert recording, at least one of a rock n roll band, stage specifics don't come across in a big way in the venue and probably shouldn't in the recording either. Thinking of a big inverted T stage shape, how would you ever make that work for stage specific locations on a recording and not drive the listener nuts?

There are exceptions of course. The Eagles live performances are very, very post production heavy to try and give location specifics to instruments etc. They are an example of trying to put stage locations in the finished audio recording even if they didn't exist in the live performance.

Again, I believe y'all know more about this than I will ever know.

 

[j_garcia]

When I am listening to a presentation without video, I want the lead vocal anchored front and center (whether stereo or multichannel). I don't want them moving around the speakers unless it was actually a live performance and they were moving around.

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL, was more joking about the guys all over the stage in a rock show....would likely be a royal pain to try and have the PA reflect his stage position altho maybe its been done, I don't know. Can't think of any live recordings that have done that either, it was just a thought.

I do wonder about something like an opera, though, since the position of a voice on stage may be very much a part of the story being told....but don't like opera enough to sample any

 

[Bucknekked]

I do wonder about something like an opera, though, since the position of a voice on stage may be very much a part of the story being told....but don't like opera enough to sample any

For Opera, we may have to have TLS Guy or someone with actual cultural skills to chime in. I am a culturally illiterate hayseed. I can claim no socially redeeming cultural skills, including appreciating opera.

I have had the pleasure of attending just one Opera at a real Opera house. Madama Butterfly. In Italian.
While each performer is mic'd individually, and each performer moves across the stage, the sound does not follow them. Again, the PA system is fixed. I have mic'd a few plays and the same phenomenon exists.
The mixing board controls the magic, but, the magic all comes out the same PA speakers.

Take that single data point for what its worth: not much from a culturally destitute desert rat.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just saw that verdinut (d'oh!) and Dennis Murphy are also big opera fans from the B&W800 speaker discussion....

 

[Bucknekked]

Just saw that verdinut (d'oh!) and Dennis Murphy are also big opera fans from the B&W800 speaker discussion....

I try not to knock an art form that has been around nearly as long as classical music. Both opera and the classic orchestra have strong followers and I can appreciate the skill it takes to perform well in either art form. I also have given it the old school try and tried to develop a taste for it. I am alas unfit for the task.

 

[lovinthehd]

I try not to knock an art form that has been around nearly as long as classical music. Both opera and the classic orchestra have strong followers and I can appreciate the skill it takes to perform well in either art form. I also have given it the old school try and tried to develop a taste for it. I am alas unfit for the task.

If you like it go for it, some enjoy it very much (altho in that other discussion it was expressed as surprise that more young people don't favor it which I found a bit amusing as it never appealed to many young people I've met)....and it's just not for me at all. I've seen a couple, mom was somewhat a fan although she preferred more modern musicals. Yet I'm an Orff fan, go figure.

 

[Paudio]

Just wrote about this album on the other live thread.
This is how I prefer it with a live album, clear placement of the musicians, as if being there.
This most be one of the best sounding albums in 2017. It is mesmerizing. And it is live.
Recorded in DXD and available in all kinds of formats. The DXD is almost 6gb! I am sure the flac96 does a good job too.

on special offer here; http://www.soundliaison.com/

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I think buck said earlier that the Magic happens in the board. That is totally true. In recording a studio album, where most instruments are tracked individually, you can't have "correct" in room placement of a person who's in a separate room, or booth with headphones on tracking his instrument while listening to the master track in his monitors. Live performances are aimed at giving everyone in the "house" the same sound, so no you won't hear mick jagger get louder as he comes to your side of the stage etc. mixing a live recording is the same as doing it for a studio album. It's all about creating the illusion. I believe some small live events might be recorded with an effort to capture "the stage" but it's usually just the magic of the engineers. Suits me fine, as suspending disbelief for a movie is similar, and I'm very good at that. Lol