Large room dilemma

[Bors]

Hi fellas!

I've got a problem finding the right sub for a room that seems to expand infinitely. haha.

The family room has a vaulted ceiling. When facing the entertainment center the height of the ceiling on the right side is 9' and sloping up towards the left and tops out at 15' and goes back down towards the front door. Yes, it is the most challenging room acoustically, but wait it gets worse. The left side of the room opens up to a kitchen with counter and hallway. The highest point of the ceiling being 15' is just past the kitchen counter which borders the left side of the family room. The floor area of the FR is 11x22=242 Ft² which has a volume of about north of 2,000 Ft³ not even counting the kitchen and hallway and what not.

I've tried the Bic F12 but it only sounds decent at -5.5 and at 1 o'clock on the gain knob. I'm worried that turning the dial further will cause clipping when it peaks. Also, I've read that even at "0" on the speaker level setting in the AVR the sub outs on some receivers tend to clip. Do you think 150watts RMS is not enough for this room? Shall I go for the Hsu VTF-2 MK5 or the RBH I-12?

Would really appreciate your inputs.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not sure what you mean by sounds decent at -5.5 and that gain position. Is that the avr sub level or the master volume? How are you calibrating, by ear? How did you choose the position of the sub? What's the total volume of space open to the sub? OTOH either of the two subs you mention are improvements on the BIC. Comparing wattage among subs isn't very meaningful.

 

[shadyJ]

Have you looked into near-field placement? One spot the really works for me is placing the sub right behind the listening position. You get hit with a lot of its acoustic energy before it gets dissipated by the room. I also get the flattest frequency response here. Such a placement overcomes any room size. Try the sub there, if you can. A VTF-2 would kill in such a placement, and an I-12 would be solid there as well. If running a signal cable becomes a problem, look into a wireless adapter.

 

[Bors]

Appreciate the quick response fellas.

It's the AVR sub level under 'settings'. I ran YPAO under these settings:

Sub Placement = right corner beside right channel speaker (this is the only option for the sub )
Input = LFE
Power switch = on (not auto)
Gain knob = 5 (halfway or 12 o'clock)
Phase = 0 (norm)
LPF = max

Results:
Speaker size = large (changed it to small)
Sub distance = 12.6
Sub level = -10

Couldn't hear the sub. Ran YPAO again this time gain at 4 (11 o'clock position) and sub level was set to -9. Wasn't satisfied with the results of the calibration so I set it manually starting at 6, 5.5, 5, then settled at 5.5. Sound was low...turned gain knob slowly from 4 and it wasn't until it hit past 5 when it started to come alive and I stopped at 6 (1 o'clock position) where it sounded good - very good. BTW, master volume was at -30 to -25.

My only concern is that there's not much headroom for this sub at the 1 o'clock position when the really big explosions come. Others have theirs sounding great even at 10 - 11 o'clock. I'm thinking maybe it's time to up the wattage, don't you think? Oh I forgot to mention this earlier...before this Bic I've had a Polk PSW111 which served me eight years before it blew a cap. The poor thing was in overdrive mode all the time (i.e. AVR sub level @ +8; gain @ max). This is why I'm considering returning the Bic. I feel 150watts is not enough for this room.

 

[everettT]

I guess you missed the part where loving stated watts have very little to do with Performance. I know of subs that can play into the teens with 150 watts. If you want more performance in that room I would be looking at the HSU vtf3.

Appreciate the quick response fellas.

It's the AVR sub level under 'settings'. I ran YPAO under these settings:

Sub Placement = right corner beside right channel speaker (this is the only option for the sub )
Input = LFE
Power switch = on (not auto)
Gain knob = 5 (halfway or 12 o'clock)
Phase = 0 (norm)
LPF = max

Results:
Speaker size = large (changed it to small)
Sub distance = 12.6
Sub level = -10

Couldn't hear the sub. Ran YPAO again this time gain at 4 (11 o'clock position) and sub level was set to -9. Wasn't satisfied with the results of the calibration so I set it manually starting at 6, 5.5, 5, then settled at 5.5. Sound was low...turned gain knob slowly from 4 and it wasn't until it hit past 5 when it started to come alive and I stopped at 6 (1 o'clock position) where it sounded good - very good. BTW, master volume was at -30 to -25.

My only concern is that there's not much headroom for this sub at the 1 o'clock position when the really big explosions come. Others have theirs sounding great even at 10 - 11 o'clock. I'm thinking maybe it's time to up the wattage, don't you think? Oh I forgot to mention this earlier...before this Bic I've had a Polk PSW111 which served me eight years before it blew a cap. The poor thing was in overdrive mode all the time (i.e. AVR sub level @ +8; gain @ max). This is why I'm considering returning the Bic. I feel 150watts is not enough for this room.

 

[lovinthehd]

Appreciate the quick response fellas.

It's the AVR sub level under 'settings'. I ran YPAO under these settings:

Sub Placement = right corner beside right channel speaker (this is the only option for the sub )
Input = LFE
Power switch = on (not auto)
Gain knob = 5 (halfway or 12 o'clock)
Phase = 0 (norm)
LPF = max

Results:
Speaker size = large (changed it to small)
Sub distance = 12.6
Sub level = -10

Couldn't hear the sub. Ran YPAO again this time gain at 4 (11 o'clock position) and sub level was set to -9. Wasn't satisfied with the results of the calibration so I set it manually starting at 6, 5.5, 5, then settled at 5.5. Sound was low...turned gain knob slowly from 4 and it wasn't until it hit past 5 when it started to come alive and I stopped at 6 (1 o'clock position) where it sounded good - very good. BTW, master volume was at -30 to -25.

My only concern is that there's not much headroom for this sub at the 1 o'clock position when the really big explosions come. Others have theirs sounding great even at 10 - 11 o'clock. I'm thinking maybe it's time to up the wattage, don't you think? Oh I forgot to mention this earlier...before this Bic I've had a Polk PSW111 which served me eight years before it blew a cap. The poor thing was in overdrive mode all the time (i.e. AVR sub level @ +8; gain @ max). This is why I'm considering returning the Bic. I feel 150watts is not enough for this room.

The position of the gain knob on the sub is just to match it up to the output level of your avr. YPAO am not familiar with in this regard, but bumping up sub level isn't unusual to account for taste. Once you settle on a level setting post-YPAO, raise it just with the sub level in the avr. You may indeed be asking too much of your subs in your room, tho, and simply need a more powerful and capable sub.

As far as watts, without knowing the sensitivity of each sub system, hard to say how meaningful that is when comparing to another sub's wattage rating. You could have a 150w sub with 93 dB sensitivity (have no idea what your sub is, these are numbers just for the example) compared to a 600w sub with 87 dB sensitivity and they'd be relatively equal in spl due to the higher sensitivity of the 150w sub, all other things equal (takes a doubling of power to gain 3dB).

Your sub as calibrated doesn't mean it should be "heard" necessarily, subs can be subtle at normal levels, but if you want exaggerated response then you're going to ask a lot more of it...

The best way to know how your sub is responding in your room is if you take measurements. Your single position for the sub isn't necessarily a good one, either and again measurements would help. Did you do something like a sub crawl to see how the sub works in that position?

 

[2channel lover]

Appreciate the quick response fellas.

It's the AVR sub level under 'settings'. I ran YPAO under these settings:

Sub Placement = right corner beside right channel speaker (this is the only option for the sub )
Input = LFE
Power switch = on (not auto)
Gain knob = 5 (halfway or 12 o'clock)
Phase = 0 (norm)
LPF = max

Results:
Speaker size = large (changed it to small)
Sub distance = 12.6
Sub level = -10

Couldn't hear the sub. Ran YPAO again this time gain at 4 (11 o'clock position) and sub level was set to -9. Wasn't satisfied with the results of the calibration so I set it manually starting at 6, 5.5, 5, then settled at 5.5. Sound was low...turned gain knob slowly from 4 and it wasn't until it hit past 5 when it started to come alive and I stopped at 6 (1 o'clock position) where it sounded good - very good. BTW, master volume was at -30 to -25.

My only concern is that there's not much headroom for this sub at the 1 o'clock position when the really big explosions come. Others have theirs sounding great even at 10 - 11 o'clock. I'm thinking maybe it's time to up the wattage, don't you think? Oh I forgot to mention this earlier...before this Bic I've had a Polk PSW111 which served me eight years before it blew a cap. The poor thing was in overdrive mode all the time (i.e. AVR sub level @ +8; gain @ max). This is why I'm considering returning the Bic. I feel 150watts is not enough for this room.

My listening space is roughly 2800 cu ft open to a lot more cu ft...at least as much as the listening space itself.

I don't know much about the sub that you have, but you can do yourself a favor and call HSU and talk with Dr Hsu or Kevin.

I did and after listening to me for 10 mins or so and asking a few more questions, the suggestion was VTF3mk5...he said one would do the trick if I could give it ideal placement. But, two would pretty much guarantee the results I was looking for without having the subs turned up super high, better balance with little to no localization issues. If I felt one was good enough, send the other one back no questions asked.

I bought two VTF3mk5s. Kevin as spot on...I started with one along the TV all and one near field behind the seating...I liked it a lot, but I was noticing localization with the front sub so I moved them both to the TV wall left and right of the TV...that took care of the localization...after running Audyssey EQ again, it had me put them between 9 and 10...great for music...for movies I run them a little higher about 11-11.5...and the bass gain on the AV is +3dB....that rattles the house on movies.

Bottomline...being under subbed for HT defeats the purpose of having a HT. If your sub is not giving you what you want at the level you have it adjusted to...bring in reinforcements!

 

[ATLAudio]

@2channel lover

A few observations.

I've also not had near-field work for me due to localization, so that's not a surprise.

What kind of AVR make and model are you using?

Also, don't adjust the knob for HT to music, just adjust the subwoofer setting on the AVR.

 

[2channel lover]

@2channel lover

A few observations.

I've also not had near-field work for me due to localization, so that's not a surprise.

What kind of AVR make and model are you using?

Also, don't adjust the knob for HT to music, just adjust the subwoofer setting on the AVR.

Actually the near field sub was fine. Generally speaking having one along the TV wall and one behind the seating was not "bad" by any means...but the for music bass was weighted towards the sub on the TV wall (essentially localized) and I wanted more balance...reluctantly I moved the near field sub to the TV wall opposite side of the TV from the other one...problem solved.

Marantz AV7702mkii...This pic is a group shot this system currently...the speaker positions have been tweaked since this was taken bringing the mains more forward. The sub on the left was moved from the nearfield position to here....The Salks are in production, and will replace the LCR speakers at some point this fall.

Adjustment...not sure I understand. Audyssey established the settings...I did go into the AV setting and increased the gain 3db for both subs, that is constant and seems to be ideal for music and some movies. For some other movies (especially those w/o a lot of action) I have increased the gain on the sub notch or so...are you saying I should not touch that and only increase the gain via the AV?

Thanks for the insight.

 

[lovinthehd]

The advantage of using only the level adjustment on the avr vs the gain on the sub itself is that the avr is more accurate/repeatable (and also easier). Some gain knob settings aren't even the same between two of the same make/model, let alone trying to use the little demarcations/detents as an accurate gauge.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Lots of good advice so far. My room is very similar only larger. That bic doesn't have a chance. Especially if you're on concrete which I bet you are. Plenty of options but I think in the end 2 15's will be what it takes. For reference, I have 2 very capable 12's and a moderately capable 12 as a mid bass module. I have great extension but in the back of my mind I'm always aware of the volume, afraid I'm gonna bottom something out.

 

[2channel lover]

The advantage of using only the level adjustment on the avr vs the gain on the sub itself is that the avr is more accurate/repeatable (and also easier). Some gain knob settings aren't even the same between two of the same make/model, let alone trying to use the little demarcations/detents as an accurate gauge.

Noted...thanks LTHD!

I've dialed the sub back where it Audyssey put it and adjust thru the Marantz.

 

[Bors]

I guess you missed the part where loving stated watts have very little to do with Performance. I know of subs that can play into the teens with 150 watts. If you want more performance in that room I would be looking at the HSU vtf3.

Can't afford it.

 

[Bors]

Did you do something like a sub crawl to see how the sub works in that position?

I'm already used to the current spot where the sub is on. I can't do the crawl because there's not much space to crawl on anyway -- lots of plants around the listening area -- also nearfield placement is not even an option unless the sub wants to burn calories .

 

[Bors]

@2channel lover

Positive territory on speaker level settings is a no-no. I learned the hard way. The general consensus is to choose a level on the AVR preferably in the (-) side and if it can't be helped 0 tops and no more beyond that and make adjustments on the gain knob -- not the other way around.

@William Lemmerhirt

Yep, I'm on laminate on concrete. You're right the Bic, wattage wise, is not enough for this room. Wished I had a budget for a 15 but I'm going for a decently powered sub (so as not to confuse myself further) and I'm leaning strongly towards the I-12 (350w) or perhaps the I-12/e (500w). I'm no longer considering the VTF-2 MK5 mainly because the exhaust pipes are not in the back and it will not enhance the bass any further as it would with a sub that has rear firing ports backed in a corner.

Anyone here has bought a B-stock before?

 

[lovinthehd]

@2channel lover

Positive territory on speaker level settings is a no-no. I learned the hard way. The general consensus is to choose a level on the AVR preferably in the (-) side and if it can't be helped 0 tops and no more beyond that and make adjustments on the gain knob -- not the other way around.

@William Lemmerhirt

Yep, I'm on laminate on concrete. You're right the Bic, wattage wise, is not enough for this room. Wished I had a budget for a 15 but I'm going for a decently powered sub (so as not to confuse myself further) and I'm leaning strongly towards the I-12 (350w) or perhaps the I-12/e (500w). I'm no longer considering the VTF-2 MK5 mainly because the exhaust pipes are not in the back and it will not enhance the bass any further as it would with a sub that has rear firing ports backed in a corner.

Anyone here has bought a B-stock before?

You might want to get a zillion watt sub then, that should fix it. Good grief, you cannot compare wattage alone!

 

[shadyJ]

Yep, I'm on laminate on concrete. You're right the Bic, wattage wise, is not enough for this room. Wished I had a budget for a 15 but I'm going for a decently powered sub (so as not to confuse myself further) and I'm leaning strongly towards the I-12 (350w) or perhaps the I-12/e (500w). I'm no longer considering the VTF-2 MK5 mainly because the exhaust pipes are not in the back and it will not enhance the bass any further as it would with a sub that has rear firing ports backed in a corner.

The side of the sub that the ports are mounted on will make almost zero difference for the overall performance in-room. Wattage won't make nearly as much difference as driver design and enclosure design. Don't pay too much attention to wattage.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

@2channel lover

Positive territory on speaker level settings is a no-no. I learned the hard way. The general consensus is to choose a level on the AVR preferably in the (-) side and if it can't be helped 0 tops and no more beyond that and make adjustments on the gain knob -- not the other way around.

@William Lemmerhirt

Yep, I'm on laminate on concrete. You're right the Bic, wattage wise, is not enough for this room. Wished I had a budget for a 15 but I'm going for a decently powered sub (so as not to confuse myself further) and I'm leaning strongly towards the I-12 (350w) or perhaps the I-12/e (500w). I'm no longer considering the VTF-2 MK5 mainly because the exhaust pipes are not in the back and it will not enhance the bass any further as it would with a sub that has rear firing ports backed in a corner.

Anyone here has bought a B-stock before?

I would also caution to put less stock into wattage. While it's not to be completely overlooked, there are many factors involved. In a good design, all the parts are designed to work together. The bic is an ok subwoofer. It's just not made to fill that much airspace. If you're satisfied with its extension, maybe a couple more of those would help with the headroom thing. As far as the ports go, their orientation won't mean a whole lot. A 20hz wave is 56' long so for HT especially, that won't matter. So if that's the only case to rule out the hsu, I'd reconsider.

 

[Pogre]

The advantage of using only the level adjustment on the avr vs the gain on the sub itself is that the avr is more accurate/repeatable (and also easier). Some gain knob settings aren't even the same between two of the same make/model, let alone trying to use the little demarcations/detents as an accurate gauge.

They're usually not the same. The knob position on my VTF-3 MK5's are different by almost a full quarter turn.

 

[2channel lover]

They're usually not the same. The knob position on my VTF-3 MK5's are different by almost a full quarter turn.

I talked with Kevin (HSU) about a few other things last week and he confirmed...the best way to adjust the sub levels is leave the gain knob where your room EQ suggests and tweak it via the AVR/AV controls if it has those adjustment options on board.