Know anything about washing machines?

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
We have a top loading maytag washer we bought about 5 years ago…
The info I learned about the demise of the old Maytag company is that they went belly up in 2005. They would have closed the doors and gone the way of the dinosaurs, but Whirlpool bought the name.

Apparently, if I can believe the appliance store salesman, that prior to failing, the old Maytag was in a hurry to be the first US maker to produce a modern front loading washer with a "green" direct drive mechanism. Their first models were a disaster, and the resulting crisis drove the old company under. It seems like it was the result of bad management decisions. I wonder if any MBA program uses this example as a management technique to avoid :rolleyes:.

I say take your wife to the store and let her pick out the one she likes.
Roger that. I may be "old as dust", but I ain't dumb as dust. At least, not yet.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
Swerd,

I sold appliances at HH Gregg for 8 months, so I'm an expert. :rolleyes:

I would think of this in terms of purchasing some new audio/video gear. Certain things should be considered to help make the best purchase.

Here are some things you should consider; How dirty do your clothes get, how large is the family, do you have time to do several medium sized loads, would you prefer to do one or two large loads, is efficiency important, less water/energy usage?

Do you need a washer and dryer? I would recommend getting a new set and not just a washer or a dryer. The new washers spin at such higher RPM's that clothes are much dryer coming out the washer than they used to be. So putting clothes that are not as damp into an older dryer is a waste of energy and will also wear your clothes out faster. The leading cause of clothes getting thread bare is over drying.

I would stay away form anything GE. They're crap.

As far LG & Samsung, yes, we had a some returns with certain models. Think in terms of cars. One family has a '97' Taurus with 300,000 miles, their neighbors lasted only 80,000. It happens. Also, there are more LG's and Samsungs sold, so that is something to consider when looking at failure rates. But, both are always top rated by CR, which I have also lost faith in...

Top loaders are getting more efficient, larger. Some that don't have agitators and just an 'impeller' have caused some problems for things like sheets and blankets. There is a learning curve for properly loading the washer.

I have had people return front loaders because they feel, real or imagined, that clothes are not getting clean because the water usage is so low. Front loaders use 8-12 gallons of water compared to top loaders that can use up to 75 gallons.

As far as brands, Electrolux and Frididaire for front load and Maytag and LG for top load.

HH Gregg is typically willing to bargain on price. The salesman are commissioned so they would rather make something, than nothing. As for extended warranties, only you can decide if it's worth it. When the warranty is brought up, ask for a discount. You should be able to get up to 30% off the warranty. Don't be afraid to walk away from a 'deal'. Use one store against the other for better pricing, show that you have cards from salesman at other stores.

Sorry if this got a little convoluted.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
It made both of us feel like dinosaurs because we wanted something deemed old and out of date, even if it works better. Just like I feel with smart phones, burnt coffee, etc., I am no longer in the age group targeted by the marketing people, and therefore don't matter.
You've said it all right there. Couldn't have said it better.:)

I feel sorry for anyone, especially younger generations that are force fed, and fall for all of the Green Marketing.
While some is valid, much is just a new way to separate people from their money.
Edward Bernays is somewhere laughing.:D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You've said it all right there. Couldn't have said it better.:)

I feel sorry for anyone, especially younger generations that are force fed, and fall for all of the Green Marketing.
While some is valid, much is just a new way to separate people from their money.
Edward Bernays is somewhere laughing.:D
You aren't kidding on the 'Green' label initiative. Like CFL lightbulbs that have a 9 year lifespan. The ballast will crap out in less than two leaving you with a light bulb that cost many times more than an incandescent and any cost savings went up in smoke with the ballast.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
pbsfan9 – Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them, especially this part:

Here are some things you should consider; How dirty do your clothes get, how large is the family, do you have time to do several medium sized loads, would you prefer to do one or two large loads, is efficiency important, less water/energy usage?
In an earlier post, I mentioned a next door neighbor who had German made washers (Bosch or Miele?) that were often unusable because of the lack of spare parts. This neighbor was very nice, but also kind of spoiled. She complained often and loud to the German makers. In their back & forth communications, the always-frugal Germans asked her just how often she ran her washer, because the parts that she needed to replace should not, in their opinion, have failed. They were shocked to hear that she answered 2-3 times a day! They responded that their machines were engineered and designed to run 2-3 times a week! They never could understand those profligate and wasteful Americans. So your comments about preferences and usage are important.

I agree about GE and I already stay away from their home appliances.

As far LG & Samsung, they may possibly have a better machine when new. But if they can't establish a functioning distribution system for repair parts, then I won't buy them.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
You aren't kidding on the 'Green' label initiative. Like CFL lightbulbs that have a 9 year lifespan. The ballast will crap out in less than two leaving you with a light bulb that cost many times more than an incandescent and any cost savings went up in smoke with the ballast.
I can't tell you how many CFL's I've replaced in less than one year. I've finally wised up. (just a little):D I write a date on the bulb to see if I can take advantage of the supposed 2 yr warranty.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi Swerd,
Here is a nice site done by someone in the repair business.

http://www.appliance411.com/purchase/make.shtml

I too have a long time friend in appliance repair and he said the exact same thing TLS had heard.

What has happened (as with most products) reliability has taken a back seat to energy efficiency and 'Green' labeling.
The problems manifest in the new direct drive motors in washer that are made by Fisher & Paykel or any brand that copies that 'Smart Drive' technology.
It's a very good concept that isn't quite ready for prime time. Direct drive washers are easily recognized by their lack of a center spindle in the tub.

We ended up with a Speed Queen - no electronics to go bad, analogue dials, stainless steel tub, two speed spin, and metal gear transmission.

Good luck and be careful out there!
Thanks for that post Rick, as usual the most useful reply of the bunch. I will bookmark that link and page!

So it does seem the Maytag Performa range is the place to look first.
 
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ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I am so confused....

Are both of your wife's hands broken or something?:D
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Swerd, the Whirlpool Cabrio I have does not have the agitator, so may be a bad option. It has worked well for me thus far (1 year), but may be short-lived.

Regardless of whether it is front or top load, it is not a bad idea to leave the door open between uses - just to let it air out and any moisture evaporate easily.
But, it's not worth making a deal out of if your wife isn't on board with it.

On the state of appliance durability, I think the refrigerator is probably the most dramatic case. People who had refrigerators that were not frost-free were waiting for their fridge to die so they could buy a model with defrost. Several just gave up waiting and hauled their old fridge to the dump. My mom replaced her fridge because she had already repainted the enamel on the front and it had reached the point where no paint job (short of having it sand-blasted) would allow for a decent finish - would guess it was about 30 YO, definitely 25! They just would never die!

My last fridge had the compressor go out 4 years after I bought it. The repair guy said this was pretty much the status quo for new machines.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Part of her resistance may be learning curve related. I suggested that she hadn't given front loading washers a fair trial, and that it would require some new habits. She gave me a look that didn't require words. It suggested her willingness to have large floor standing speakers could be repealed at any time. Like I said earlier, I don't really have a dog in this hunt. It's always a successful stratgy to choose your battles wisely.

I had a neighbor who was proud of her German-made washer, drier, and dishwasher. They were also often OOCAWP (out of commission awaiting parts). I wonder if the same problem would exist for Korean washers. No matter how energy/water efficient they might be on paper, they would have zero efficiency if they couldn't easily be repaired.
.
Yes, you have to choose the right battles carefully. ;)
So far the LG has the lowest repair frequency but don't know how many years that covers, certainly it is more than a year or few years. Mine is trouble free so far.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Everybody, thanks for your help. I do appreciate all of it.

The first generation of "smart" direct drive washers was more a failure than a success, but that doesn't mean these problems won't eventually be solved. I think this could be viewed as a work in progress. In my opinion, the willingness of appliance makers to ignore long-term reliability is a bigger problem for the consumers.

It may actually be that the direct drive machines now being made are significantly better than the first generation. But we can't know their repair record until later. I need to decide what to buy this week, and I don't have the luxury of gambling on what may be true.

So thanks everyone.

OK, I am disappointed with Adam – with all your expertise on vacuum cleaners, I had hoped you would at least know something about washing machines :rolleyes:.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I tried to convince my wife to do a front loader and then use hang drying, but she didn't like that idea. I figured since she did the laundry I'd not press the issue.

I do recommend looking into hang drying where possible.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I do recommend looking into hang drying where possible.
I hear hand washing is really making a big come back. You hear that, Rich? Tell Bonnie to take it down to the stream so that you can save on the water bill too.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I hear hand washing is really making a big come back. You hear that, Rich? Tell Bonnie to take it down to the stream so that you can save on the water bill too.
If I suggest that, I wouldn't care to predict what she might insist I do by hand in return.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I hear hand washing is really making a big come back. You hear that, Rich? Tell Bonnie to take it down to the stream so that you can save on the water bill too.
This is a great idea. Make sure you video the conversation and give her instructions on how to post it here.
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic General
The info I learned about the demise of the old Maytag company is that they went belly up in 2005. They would have closed the doors and gone the way of the dinosaurs, but Whirlpool bought the name.

Apparently, if I can believe the appliance store salesman, that prior to failing, the old Maytag was in a hurry to be the first US maker to produce a modern front loading washer with a "green" direct drive mechanism. Their first models were a disaster, and the resulting crisis drove the old company under. It seems like it was the result of bad management decisions. I wonder if any MBA program uses this example as a management technique to avoid :rolleyes:.
Sorry, had to jump in here but wished I had checked over the weekend. I'm a former Maytag engineer on laundry products and was there at the end. Maytag was in a world of hurt and had two offers, a private equity firm and Whirlpool. Whirlpool's offer was higher, 'nuff said.

What drug Maytag down? It was a series of events. The appliance industry looked like a normal bell-shaped curve when you looked at the market vs. the price paint (low-med-high) with the middle point having the most sales. That was Maytag's bread and butter with the highest margins. The other guys played at the low end. Then the high-end market in front loaders really exploded with the Maytag Neptune line of washers and dryers. The energy efficiency was very popular in states like California and with changing consumer tastes. Great margins on the products and eventually others wanted to play in that market as well. But that shouldn't have brought Maytag down.

So we now have to look at the business and culture of Maytag. Great place to work, BTW. Maytag, like many old profitable companies, suffered from a terminal case of "fat, dumb, and happy." The company had been around so long and had been successful for so long that it never sought the efficiencies that are needed to survive in a tough world. Why do that when they are profitable and life is good? When other brands were acquired, they were left to run just as they had been before. No design changes to incorporate common parts, maximize manufacturing productivity, etc. As an example, in 2003, Maytag had 4 laundry factories that made top-loading washers that all competed at the same price points. Not only that, but they didn't have common parts. Sure two of them used the same motor only "we know better so our motor mount is rotated 90 degrees..." so same motor, but different mounts and therefore different belts. Two platforms had essentially the same water valve, only one facility insisted their coils needed to be rotated 15 degrees. New part number, less volume, higher part cost. Plus each factory had it's own design staff all doing their own thing because each design team was smarter than everyone else.

There were efforts to commonize parts and drive discounts with single supplier sourcing. But those efforts were undermined at the local level by the local fiefdoms as they worked to protect their long-term supplier buddies. You know, the supplier that is your drinking and golfing buddy. So the high margin parts were kept locally sourced and the crap was offered up to the single-source supplier who looked at it and said "no thanks." At one point, the company was so not integrated that it had 3 full and complete HR departments for 3 businesses. The systems were all different with no communication and nothing in common. So no economies of scale and tons of duplication which costs money. Not saying it's all HR's fault, it is just one example of the many costly and expensive duplications that were present within Maytag.

Ok, so now Maytag is and was fat, profitable, full of individual kingdoms run by fiercely territorial kings, had a new CEO from Whirlpool who was a finance guy who knew numbers, but lacked the charisma to lead the people like the old CEO, and did not understand the strong Maytag culture, and a marketplace that was shifting from many, many small, independent appliance dealers to big box retailers. So what happened? September 11, 2001.

Huh? Yeah, remember 9-11? What did people do? They nested. People stayed home with their families. The home regained the position as the castle. Remodeling and upgrading became the norm. This happened very rapidly in terms of market change, 6 - 12 months. The bell-shaped market curve I mentioned? Yeah, invert that. The market went from high in the middle to either cheap or expensive. Home upgraders went high end. Great! Maytag had the high end front loaders. Yep. But that wasn't enough to make up for the loss in the middle market. Not when you have so many factories all making products competing against each other at the same price point under the same brand name. Let's look at Whirlpool as a comparison. Take a standard Whirlpool top-load washer circa 2000. From just below the washer top all the way to the bottom, they were essentially the same guts. Same parts, same design, same assembly, all made in one factory. Massive economies of scale. When Whirlpool was bidding out parts for a volume of 1.5-2 million pieces a year, each of Maytag's factories was bidding out volumes of 300-400k because they had no common parts. Big difference in purchasing power and pricing leverage. No one and I mean no one can make a cheap washer like Whirlpool. Not talking quality, just talking cost.

Now, throw in that in the early 2000's, the retail market had changed from the majority of sales being small, local mom & pop retailers to 90% of the market being big box retailers (10 of them) with their pricing leverage accordingly. So Maytag sat there after 9-11 with the market rapidly changing, with a very high cost structure, with big-box retailers putting big downward pressure on pricing (the price they paid, not what the consumer paid), and they went from fat, profitable, and happy to losing their *** and cash dwindling rapidly. Throw in the resistance to the initiatives to economies of scale, the little kingdoms, etc., and Maytag went the way of the dinosaur very quickly.

A lot of long-time employees blame the last CEO. He rightfully share the some of the blame because you couldn't run Maytag from a glass tower where you don't mingle with the "little people" like is done at Whirlpool. Maytag's culture requires a leader to be in front of the people. He figured this out too late. But blame also is shared by the CEO he replaced. Old timers look at this guy as almost a Jesus-like figure. But he shares the blame because a lot of the economies of scale that should have been put in place with each acquisition under his leadership were never done. You do that when you are profitable, not when you are starving to death. Ultimately, savings were gained, but too little, too late.

It was a shame since Maytag made a good product. Great laundry products (still have my Neptune washer and drying cabinet). Great cooking products. Great refridgerators. Solidly built and lasted.

One of the reasons appliance don't last anymore if it's all about money. Cost reduction. If the average life of an appliance in the market is 6.8 years and yours lasts 14, you are leaving money on the table. Thinner plastic, cheaper bearings, cheaper seals, thinner metal, cheaper grades of stainless steel, etc. Yeah they don't last because they aren't made the same. They are designed to be made as cheaply as possible because people will just go buy a new one when it breaks in 5 years. It's all about money.

Don't get me started on Samsung laundry products...I have a story for that.
 

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