KEF Speakers

[Irvrobinson]

You almost bought Phil3 without audition. Maybe.

Yes, I almost did. $3K is nearly an impulse buy, and I was trusting your ears. In the end I just decided to stop being so fickle. Although, admittedly, I still have a bit of Funk Audio 18.3 envy, even though I'm actually very happy with the Velodyne. You are a bad influence.

 

[monkish54]

There we go - now we're getting somewhere.

So you don't need to know how a speaker will sound in your room? Why listen to them there then? Lol - come on man, you set me up again!

Let me try this..

Normal Person

I want a new $10,000 loudspeaker. I shall go down to my local AV shop and listen to the speakers. If I can, I will take them home and try them there. Hey, this sounds really good to me at home too. I shall buy them.

Me
At the same shop:

Hey this $10,000 speaker sounds really good to me. I wonder how it measures?! Not so good, huh? I wont buy them.

Hey this $2,000,000 speaker sounds really good to me. I wonder how it measures?! Oh sweet, it measures very well. It is +1, -0db on axis, it has a very uniform off-axis throw, great time delay, no cabinet resonance, very little non linear distortion, little linear distortion, the drivers have little VC modulation as volume increases, power compression is a non issue. I shall buy these.

I seek neutrality, not "good" sound. I don't care how good the speaker sounds to me, it must be neutral before I consider it.

This is why I can buy "blind". All I care about is neutrality. Blind for me would be buying a speaker without seeing how it measures.

As I said before, this only works for people who seek absolute neutrality. If one wants something they enjoy, they must listen, and measurements are simply a way to weed out the really poor candidates.

How speakers will sound in my room matters to me not. It's how they measure in my room. If they measure poorly, I will do what I can to improve upon the situation and gain back my neutrality.

 

[monkish54]

The ploy worked. I'm currently building bipolar 3-way speakers for my 3 fronts using active crossovers, chipamps and CLD damping. Of course I've been on the project for like 3 years.

LOOOL

We have an omni guy in our presence? :O

What drivers did you chose?!

 

[Irvrobinson]

I seek neutrality, not "good" sound. I don't care how good the speaker sounds to me, it must be neutral before I consider it.

This is why I can buy "blind". All I care about is neutrality. Blind for me would be buying a speaker without seeing how it measures.

Don't forget accuracy. It is simply my contention that you cannot judge neutrality and accuracy just by available measurements. Without listening you may get inaccurate-sounding neutrality. Music is not a frequency sweep.

 

[Nuance AH]

Let me try this..
I seek neutrality, not "good" sound. I don't care how good the speaker sounds to me, it must be neutral before I consider it.

And there it is. I was going to say you can hear everything you described (time delay, distortion, FR deviance, etc) by listening, but then you went and said what I quoted above. You're right - your approach is definitely different.

You do realize I've just been poking at you with a stick this entire time, right? I've just been goofing with you for fun, because I know you can handle it and dish it back (unlike some others - cough cough). Lets put all that aside and get serious for a bit, though... You honestly don't care about good sound and would rather purchase based on measurements? This truly does shock me, but if that's what you want to do then good for you.

Don't forget accuracy. It is simply my contention that you cannot judge neutrality and accuracy just by available measurements. Without listening you may get inaccurate-sounding neutrality. Music is not a frequency sweep.

I've been trying to explain this, but it is like there's a language barrier. Sometimes it's hard to convey what one is actually trying to say by simply typing on a forum...

 

[monkish54]

Don't forget accuracy. It is simply my contention that you cannot judge neutrality and accuracy just by available measurements. Without listening you may get inaccurate-sounding neutrality. Music is not a frequency sweep.

In this case neutrality and accuracy are one in the same.

If my speaker is neutral, it will be accurate.

Now, if you are referring to detail, I can use my knowledge of loudspeaker engineering (if you want an example I will be happy to provide one) to determine how detailed a speaker will be. Likewise, if I take proper (extensive) measurements, I can also determine the amount of detail I will get.

 

[Calvin Hobbes]

Let me try this..

Normal Person

I want a new $10,000 loudspeaker. I shall go down to my local AV shop and listen to the speakers. If I can, I will take them home and try them there. Hey, this sounds really good to me at home too. I shall buy them.

Me
At the same shop:

Hey this $10,000 speaker sounds really good to me. I wonder how it measures?! Not so good, huh? I wont buy them.

Hey this $2,000,000 speaker sounds really good to me. I wonder how it measures?! Oh sweet, it measures very well. It is +1, -0db on axis, it has a very uniform off-axis throw, great time delay, no cabinet resonance, very little non linear distortion, little linear distortion, the drivers have little VC modulation as volume increases, power compression is a non issue. I shall buy these.

I seek neutrality, not "good" sound. I don't care how good the speaker sounds to me, it must be neutral before I consider it.

This is why I can buy "blind". All I care about is neutrality. Blind for me would be buying a speaker without seeing how it measures.

As I said before, this only works for people who seek absolute neutrality. If one wants something they enjoy, they must listen, and measurements are simply a way to weed out the really poor candidates.

Uniform off axis throw does not equal neutrality. A speaker with a very gradual off axis roll off(upper mid to low treble) will sound very bright in a somewhat normal room, but will sound quite neutral in a very large room. A speaker with somewhat controlled directivity and a faster roll off will also be considered a neutral speaker, but will sound quite different from the former speaker.

The way in which a speaker builder controls the dampening of the driver system will have a large determination on how a speaker sounds. Two speakers with similar measurements but very different dampening of the drivers will sound totally unlike each other. Although they both will be considered neutral speakers.

 

[monkish54]

And there it is. I was going to say you can hear everything you described (time delay, distortion, FR deviance, etc) by listening, but then you went and said what I quoted above. You're right - your approach is definitely different.

Very very very very different. LOL

You do realize I've just been poking at you with a stick this entire time, right?

Why you gotta do that? Sticks hurt man! Sticks and stones may break your bones...

You honestly don't care about good sound and would rather purchase based on measurements? This truly does shock me, but if that's what you want to do then good for you.

I think good sound is accuracy. Even if my neutral speaker (Salon 2) is less pleasing than a distorted one (Zu Audio...anything) I would still want the Salon 2. I like the idea of a speaker that is a window to a recording more than I like the idea of coming home and listening to the sound I enjoy most.

Sometimes it's hard to convey what one is actually trying to say by simply typing on a forum...

Yes it is.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I still have a bit of Funk Audio 18.3 envy...

That makes 2 of us.

I really hope you don't ever buy the 18.3. That could be very badly contagious and resistant to every known ANTI-AUDIO-BIOTIC.

 

[Irvrobinson]

In this case neutrality and accuracy are one in the same.

If my speaker is neutral, it will be accurate.

Now, if you are referring to detail, I can use my knowledge of loudspeaker engineering (if you want an example I will be happy to provide one) to determine how detailed a speaker will be. Likewise, if I take proper (extensive) measurements, I can also determine the amount of detail I will get.

I've heard neutral speakers that aren't especially accurate. As for your measurement of detail, are you referring to a waterfall plot? None of these measurements easily tell you how a speaker really sounds when playing music. For example, I'm sure one of my favorite speakers, the Sound Lab 1-PX, doesn't measure very well, yet for accuracy and neutrality on some types of music (ones that don't cross its limits) the Sound Lab is to my ears unrivaled.

 

[monkish54]

Uniform off axis throw does not equal neutrality. A speaker with a very gradual off axis roll off(upper mid to low treble) will sound very bright in a somewhat normal room, but will sound quite neutral in a very large room.

Uniform off axis equates to good imaging and soundstage. The angle of said dispersion should be determined by the room. The Philharmonics want a LOT of space. The Gedlee Abbey is uniform but narrow, allowing it to "ignore" the room to some degree and produce good imaging and stereo imaging in a smaller room.

The way in which a speaker builder controls the dampening of the driver system will have a large determination on how a speaker sounds. Two speakers with similar measurements but very different dampening of the drivers will sound totally unlike each other.

I do not disagree with this at all. Although, I can find out what QTC was being used and allow that to factor into my decision.

Wouldn't the QTC show up on a FR test of the bass drivers as dampening controls the knee of the response.

 

[monkish54]

I've heard neutral speakers that aren't especially accurate.

They must not be very neutral then. If they produce distortion (depending on what kind. Obviously human hearing is a major factor.) then they aren't going to be accurate. Distortion destroys accuracy. Neutrality = lack of distortion.

As for your measurement of detail, are you referring to a waterfall plot?

I wasn't talking about a measurement specifically (although we CAN measure it..we don't. It's expensive and most companies don't like measurements.)

Accuracy of HF (the hardest to get accurate it appears...) is partly determined by the mass of the diaphragm material. A light, stiff diaphragm will produce HF more accurately as it can move very very very quickly. There is a reason we don't use 2" paper cones anymore. BLEH.

I did a small little write-up about this somewhere. Let me find it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here's a fact we all agree.

Monkish54 likes Salon2.
Irvrobinson likes Salon2.
ADTG likes Salon2.
GranteedEV likes Salon2.
PENG likes Salon2.

What we can disagree on: pretty much just about anything else.

 

[monkish54]

Here's a fact we all agree.

Monkish54 likes Salon2.
Irvrobinson likes Salon2.
ADTG likes Salon2.
GranteedEV likes Salon2.
PENG likes Salon2.

What we can disagree on: pretty much just about anything else.

You crack me up!

 

[monkish54]

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/914653-post104.html

I was incorrect about a small detail. If you read past the post, GranteedEV will correct me.

I was talking about Beryllium and made the mistake of not factoring diaphragm size when referring to it's 50khz breakup mode..

I have since done a good amount of research and I understand breakup better now.

I was so much more eloquent in that post.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You crack me up!

You know this thread was supposed to be just about KEF speakers, but somehow we managed to talk about Mexican food, Drugs, Revel, Funk, and lord knows what else.

 

[lsiberian]

LOOOL

We have an omni guy in our presence? :O

What drivers did you chose?!

We'll see if it works. You can see the thread in DIY section.

That said the bottom drivers are the Vifa TC14(not even sold anymore)

Midranges are Dayton Midrange Domes

Tweeters are HiVi RTIs

 

[rded]

Here's a fact we all agree.

Monkish54 likes Salon2.
Irvrobinson likes Salon2.
ADTG likes Salon2.
GranteedEV likes Salon2.
PENG likes Salon2.

What we can disagree on: pretty much just about anything else.

+1 luv the Ultima Salon 2's as well. In an alternate world/universe they will be in my short list of speakers if I were to build a system comparable to what I currently have.... that or the Magico S5s

 

[Nuance AH]

Here's a fact we all agree.

Monkish54 likes Salon2.
Irvrobinson likes Salon2.
ADTG likes Salon2.
GranteedEV likes Salon2.
PENG likes Salon2.

What we can disagree on: pretty much just about anything else.

Nuance likes the Salon 2.

Why you gotta do that? Sticks hurt man! Sticks and stones may break your bones...

Consider it newcomer hazing.

I think good sound is accuracy. Even if my neutral speaker (Salon 2) is less pleasing than a distorted one (Zu Audio...anything) I would still want the Salon 2. I like the idea of a speaker that is a window to a recording more than I like the idea of coming home and listening to the sound I enjoy most.

Good sound is subjective; good measurements are not. But good measurements still won't tell you if you'll enjoy the speakers in your listening room. Only listening will do that. So now if the sound is absolutely terrible, but the measurements are up to your standards (an unlikely scenario, but still) and the room is acoustically sound, you'd keep the speaker? That's kind of the opposite goal of this hobby. The whole point is to to find a loudspeaker that pleases you.

You said:

Yes it is.
Because of Toole and Olive, I know what measurement correlates with what audible experience of a loudspeaker. For instance...Toole's big one..Off-axis. Thanks to him I now know what allows my speaker to throw an image and have an immersive soundstage. Measurements are only good if they tell me something. Thanks to Olive and Toole, the measurements now tell me something.

But then you said:

Let me try this..
Me
At the same shop:

Hey this $10,000 speaker sounds really good to me. I wonder how it measures?! Not so good, huh? I wont buy them.

Hey this $2,000,000 speaker sounds really good to me. I wonder how it measures?! Oh sweet, it measures very well. It is +1, -0db on axis, it has a very uniform off-axis throw, great time delay, no cabinet resonance, very little non linear distortion, little linear distortion, the drivers have little VC modulation as volume increases, power compression is a non issue. I shall buy these.

I seek neutrality, not "good" sound. I don't care how good the speaker sounds to me, it must be neutral before I consider it.

The former implies you know how to correlate measurements to perception and know what to listen for. However, the latter implies you're unsure about what you're hearing unless you validate it with measurements. Your latter statement debunks the former. So which is it? What good are "great" measurements if you cannot hear the difference?

 

[monkish54]

We'll see if it works. You can see the thread in DIY section.

That said the bottom drivers are the Vifa TC14(not even sold anymore)

Midranges are Dayton Midrange Domes

Tweeters are HiVi RTIs

I really want to use those Dayton Midrange Domes! They look sexy and could make for a sweet 3-way.

This?