In-ceiling system

[rabbit_ears]

I have a friend that is finishing a new 20x20' great room addition. He asked me for suggestions on a modest system. First caveat was the wife didn't want any towers or on-walls. I thought OK, you can still build a nice system with in-walls. His wife vetoed that and said she didn't want anything in the wall either, which leaves only the ceiling. I don't have any experience with building a system like this. The only in-ceiling experience I have is with the Sonance that I put in my kitchen a couple years ago but it's just for ambient sound while working in the kitchen and music for dinner parties etc.
They will be using the system for TV, movies and to a lesser degree music.
I was suggesting an Aperion system with 4 in-ceiling speakers, either a 5 or 6" center channel (which will sit on the fireplace mantel - under the TV) and a sub. They are not tech or audio people by any stretch but they would like a good quality system and don't want to break the bank (as with most renovations they are already over budget). I feel without the center channel movie watching will be annoying with sound coming from above and/or behind; like watching a video with out of sync audio.
Can you recommend a system?
Suggest some potential pitfalls for this system?
the room is 20x20 with vaulted ceilings (framed with trusses so plenty of headspace for speakers), will keep speakers down low to focus in the middle of the room. TV will be mounted above a fireplace on one end of the room the opposite end has french doors leading to the rest of the house. Very symmetrical room.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well, for surround sound systems, it is not generally recommended to have the front 3 speakers in the ceiling. While watching the TV straight in front, the dialog will be coming from "out of the sky". You can get away with in-ceiling speakers for the surrounds.

I would guess that they want small bookshelf speakers for the fronts and centre. If that isn't acceptable, then they're beyond help, IMHO. What about a subwoofer? Is that permitted?

I just re-read your post. The TV will be above the fireplace? Ideally, the mains should be on either side of the screen, which means they should be in-wall, or wall-mounted. If there are shelves on either side of the fireplace, they could be used, although they should be tilted towards the listening position.

I personally don't like the idea of TVs mounted above fireplaces. It can lead to a poor viewing angle and creates problems with speaker placement. I recognize that situation seems to be happening, more and more. I still don't like it...

A 20 x 20 room is large, and small speakers will have trouble "filling" it. Plus, being square can be problematic for acoustics.

 

[rabbit_ears]

Thanks for your response but if the WAF isn't going to permit in-wall speakers over in-ceiling I sincerely doubt she will want to change the room dimensions to accomodate better accoustics.
I had to re-read my original post to see if i missed it, but as mentioned the center channel I was considering is the intimus 5 or 6C (which is a conventional cabinet style speaker - not in-ceiling) and I did mention the addition of a sub as well. Likely a Bravus 10D (in hopes that Aperion will give good package pricing).

 

[GO-NAD!]

Thanks for your response but if the WAF isn't going to permit in-wall speakers over in-ceiling I sincerely doubt she will want to change the room dimensions to accomodate better accoustics.
I had to re-read my original post to see if i missed it, but as mentioned the center channel I was considering is the intimus 5 or 6C (which is a conventional cabinet style speaker - not in-ceiling) and I did mention the addition of a sub as well. Likely a Bravus 10D (in hopes that Aperion will give good package pricing).

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that the room dimensions be changed! I just thought I'd mention it. From your characterisation of them, I imagine any SQ issues will not be a problem for them.

Missed the sub mention and the 5C/6C. Hey, it was early in the morning!
So, let me get this straight - a conventional centre speaker is acceptable, but a pair of bookshelf speakers would not? I think the sound panning across the front with in-ceiling mains will be dis-jointed. Whatever type of speakers they go with, they should be in the same plane. In the end, if esthetics trumps SQ, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

I can't offer any other suggestions. Good luck!

 

[m_vanmeter]

I agree, if a conventional center is OK, and smaller bookshelf units not, then in-ceiling units in a high vaulted ceiling, regardless of where you mount them are going to sound like sh*t. The compromises are so great you are in a lose-lose situation. Wifey gets her way (what else is new), the sound system is severely compromised, and it's all your fault. when the listening experience fails to meet expectations.

 

[Warpdrv]

Tell him to reclaim his nutsack.....

Leaving him with absolutely no options for sound other then ceiling speakers, why even bother at all.... No compromise is completely unrealistic...

There are plenty of options in speakers that are beautiful to look at and can become works of art and not be just big ugly boxes.....

I'll bet $1000 that he doesn't say a word about her ugly @$$ trinkets or antiques...

 

[highfigh]

Does he have a "European shoulder-bag"?

Speakers that aren't seen don't sound good but wives and designers don't care.

Personally, if this aspect can't be resolved, I would use a separate room where good speakers can be installed. Look into the ceiling speakers offered by the companies that are known to make great speakers and you'll see that they either cost more than anyone usually wants to pay or they aren't going to be as good as what most people want because the speakers need to be installed in a way that allows them to sound good. Just slapping them in the ceiling or wall guarantees nothing.

 

[MDS]

If a center channel speaker would be acceptable, then the wife must be ok with having a single speaker on the fireplace mantel.

The best bet is going to be a large soundbar. That way there is still only one speaker and at least you have pseudo-surround as they attempt to create a surround experience using many small speakers in one enclosure.

 

[rabbit_ears]

I'm sure you will all be pleased to know that my buddy has indeed convince his wife to move the front speakers down from the ceiling to the front wall; rears will remain in the ceiling. Which I think is a fair compromise.
Now as for system recommendations. Is everyone alright with the Aperion line or are there better deals out there?

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'm sure you will all be pleased to know that my buddy has indeed convince his wife to move the front speakers down from the ceiling to the front wall; rears will remain in the ceiling. Which I think is a fair compromise.
Now as for system recommendations. Is everyone alright with the Aperion line or are there better deals out there?

That is good news. Sometimes, all it takes is explaining the reasons for favouring a proper installation and they will come on board.

As for Aperion, I've never seen them, much less heard them, so I can't say yea or nay. However, they have an excellent reputation.

 

[rabbit_ears]

i can get PSB's cheaper for him than I can the aperions. Though they are not audiophiles (nor am I, just a little more educated than them) I do believe in getting the best you can for your budget. Sure they can get some no name speaker from some unknown source on the internet but I think I can convince them to spend a little for piece of mind.
That being said my next question is; the front in-walls will be flanking the TV. Whether they are 3-way or 2-way is going to depend on how picky the wife is with the size. Irregardless they will be 6" woofer (as opposed to the 8") but the center channel (likely the image line) does not come in a 6", and even the 5" is likely pushing the limit for size. Does it matter that the centre channel has smaller drivers than the other fronts?
And if you had to eliminate on component of this system would it be the centre channel or the sub? When they were going with all in-ceiling i would've said you absolutely must have a center channel; now? Ideally they will have both but that may not be realistic with no budget for sound. I think a sub would be easier to add later though.
Thoughts?

 

[GO-NAD!]

i can get PSB's cheaper for him than I can the aperions. Though they are not audiophiles (nor am I, just a little more educated than them) I do believe in getting the best you can for your budget. Sure they can get some no name speaker from some unknown source on the internet but I think I can convince them to spend a little for piece of mind.
That being said my next question is; the front in-walls will be flanking the TV. Whether they are 3-way or 2-way is going to depend on how picky the wife is with the size. Irregardless they will be 6" woofer (as opposed to the 8") but the center channel (likely the image line) does not come in a 6", and even the 5" is likely pushing the limit for size. Does it matter that the centre channel has smaller drivers than the other fronts?
And if you had to eliminate on component of this system would it be the centre channel or the sub? When they were going with all in-ceiling i would've said you absolutely must have a center channel; now? Ideally they will have both but that may not be realistic with no budget for sound. I think a sub would be easier to add later though.
Thoughts?

As I understand it, 3-way speakers are difficult - and expensive - to design and get right. It's the lower cross-over, which tends to be problematic. A good 2-way is probably the better option for their budget.

It's a fairly large room, so the speakers need to be able to move some air. Perhaps an MTM design* would be good for that installation, for all three fronts. As for the size of the drivers, I would think that it depends on the speakers in question. Some smaller ones are better than some larger ones. That'll have to be researched. No, different size drivers between speakers shouldn't matter,as long as they are from the same model line - for timbre matching. And, if it were me, I'd go without the sub for now and add it later, if it's a budget issue.

Which PSBs did you have in mind?

*Such as this: http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-6-LCR-In-Wall-Home-Theater-Speaker,225,31,702.aspx

 

[rabbit_ears]

Just returned from my friends house where I was insulating and installing vapour barrier. The plan has apparently changed again. The entire front wall will now be a wall unit (bookcases flanking the fireplace). So as you may have predicted the plan is now in-ceilings in the rear and bookshelf speakers up front.
For this I would likely still look at PSB image series (B6 and C5) or the aperion (intimus B6 and C5, I like the aesthetics of the verus line but the centre channel is a little spendy for their taste).
I actually have a 2 channel system in my upstairs family room running Angstrom Modular two's; while not the prettiest or well known speaker on the market it performs admirably for what it's asked to do.