In Ceiling Surround Speakers?

[bruther]

Hi All,
Set up-
Mains-B&W CM9
Center- B&W CM Centre2

I currently have a room about 20ft*10ft*8ft(Ceiling). My couch is at the back of the room and I need to put in surround speakers. I was originally using B&W CM1 with the speaker firing into the room. It didn't sound that good and the wife was not happy with the speakers hanging on the wall.....so I need to put surrounds speakers in...My walls are plaster/brick/block....built in the 50's with no room to put speakers in the wall. There is not studs but furring strips attached to the block with the plaster attached to the furring strips. To put in-walls in I would have to break out part of my block walls......


My question is-what does everyone think of using In-ceiling surounds speakers.....Does anyone have any better ideas? I have a pair of the B&W CCM663.....Does anyone have any experience with these? Has anyone used in-ceiling for surrounds? Has anyone used the B&W CCM663SR speaker?

Any help is greatly apprpeciated.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Hi All,
Set up-
Mains-B&W CM9
Center- B&W CM Centre2

I currently have a room about 20ft*10ft*8ft(Ceiling). My couch is at the back of the room and I need to put in surround speakers. I was originally using B&W CM1 with the speaker firing into the room. It didn't sound that good and the wife was not happy with the speakers hanging on the wall.....so I need to put surrounds speakers in...My walls are plaster/brick/block....built in the 50's with no room to put speakers in the wall. There is not studs but furring strips attached to the block with the plaster attached to the furring strips. To put in-walls in I would have to break out part of my block walls......


My question is-what does everyone think of using In-ceiling surounds speakers.....Does anyone have any better ideas? I have a pair of the B&W CCM663.....Does anyone have any experience with these? Has anyone used in-ceiling for surrounds? Has anyone used the B&W CCM663SR speaker?

Any help is greatly apprpeciated.

It is fine!

We do this all the time on projects where the back or sides of a room are open and have always achieved nothing but positive results. Is it "best"? I really, honestly and with all my heart (& ears) think it's splitting hairs in most rooms, especially multipurpose rooms (like family areas).

In my opinion, there are enough well designed speakers out there to pick from that your room can & should look as good as it sounds. If your budget allows for some leeway, a suggestion is that you can spend a little more & get angled LCRs that still sit flush in ceiling and face it into your wall so that the sound reflects down, off the side wall, and into the room. This works extremely well as a compromise as long as you can get the speaker installed around 24"-36” of the side wall. You won't tell a difference that will matter and this will allow for some flexibility in the sound depending on your room.

If positioning is tough there are other options for you. Either way, it will be fine.

.

 

[bruther]

Thanks for the response. Would the B&W CCM7.5 be a noticeable upgrade to the CCM663? The CCM7.5 has its own box and is angled.....though I can easily build a box for theCCM663.

Thoughts?

 

[InTheIndustry]

Thanks for the response. Would the B&W CCM7.5 be a noticeable upgrade to the CCM663? The CCM7.5 has its own box and is angled.....though I can easily build a box for theCCM663.

Thoughts?

I think that either of those will be acceptable it just depends on how loud you like to listen.

The CMM7.5 would be best, but I'm not going to promise you by leaps and bounds. Make sure it will fit in your joists before purchasing. Either way, even at moderate to high volumes the CCM663 will perform just fine. It will probably be more aesthetically appealing in the ceiling as well vs. the large box of the 7.5. If it were me and it was my family room, I would do the CCM663. It will be less expensive, look better, and perform just fine for a rear surround.

 

[bruther]

I listen to it fairly loud.
If I went with the CCM663....would it make any difference to make a box in the ceiling joists? What if I just covered the side spaces in the joist with Acoustic foam? Will that have any positive effect? Additionally, I even considered the CCM683 (8 inch woofer).....would a larger woofer for in-ceiling surround make a noticeable difference?


Thanks again for your help. It's much appreciated.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I listen to it fairly loud.
If I went with the CCM663....would it make any difference to make a box in the ceiling joists? What if I just covered the side spaces in the joist with Acoustic foam? Will that have any positive effect? Additionally, I even considered the CCM683 (8 inch woofer).....would a larger woofer for in-ceiling surround make a noticeable difference?


Thanks again for your help. It's much appreciated.

The 8" models would allow for better bass extension & cleaner mids at higher volumes, so if you're going for a theater sound the 8s won't hurt.

As far as building a box or enlosing them, you'll have to call B&W and ask them if they recommend that or not. Some in-ceilings are designed to be left open, others have recommended back boxes. It all depends on the engineering.

 

[iamcdn]

ITI,

Sorry to threadjack but I was wondering if you would ever recommend in-ceiling L/C/R as you described above over in-wall L/C/R design. We're redoing our basement and today was the first I had heard of this all in-ceiling design.

 

[InTheIndustry]

ITI,

Sorry to threadjack but I was wondering if you would ever recommend in-ceiling L/C/R as you described above over in-wall L/C/R design. We're redoing our basement and today was the first I had heard of this all in-ceiling design.

It all depends on the room and budget. If you describe your space, design, screen type and screen size, budget, etc. one way or the other could make more or less sense.

It's tough to say... "Yes, way A is better than way B" without knowing the context of the project and your goals. There are some incredible in-ceiling LCR speakers and there are some also-ran look alikes from companies trying to peddle speakers.

If given the option to do whatever I wanted in my own fictional room, then I would say the traditional LCR layout is best. BUT, if that would cause aesthetics of the room to be altered or would cause installation issues THAT'S when I would start to design alternative layouts (like a traditional L/R and an in-ceiling center, for example). Feel free to describe as much as you can and I (& prob others) will make recommendations!

As an example, I would recommend this to anyone looking for a top shelf in-ceiling LCR system: http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/IC-201 ProductSheet.pdf
And here's the video on them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMRVPXTmjzs

BUT.... This is actually better and litterally 1/2 the money ($1500 for all three where the in-ceiling from the same company is $3,000 for 3): http://bgcorp.com/PDFs/PD-6LCRi-literature.pdf

The difference is: One is designed for a special application/install and the other is a traditional, straight forward design. What's funny is that the $500 PD-6LCRi linked above is a much much better speaker than the model "above" it, the $800 SA-200. IMO it is one of the biggest values in speakers today.

Hope some of this helps!

 

[iamcdn]

Thanks for the quick reply ITI. I'll try my best to describe our basement living/rec room for you.

- The room is 12 feet wide and 30 feet long.
- It's going to be one open room where the seating will be at about 15 feet from the far wall (i.e. middle of the room), where there will likely be a >= 60" LCD or Plasma.
- Behind the seating is just open rec area.
- There will be a drop ceiling and cork flooring
- Drywall over basement concrete

Anyway, I was looking at Paradigm AMS LCR vs Def Tech UIW RLS II or III's. But then one of the local places suggested doing the LCR with Def Tech in-ceiling UIW 83 instead of in-walls. I wasn't sure and googled only to come up with this thread.

I'm leaning towards the front in-walls.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

TIA

 

[iamcdn]

Oh, and big problem is that I live in the great white north frozen tundra and these places don't have these speakers in for us to listen to. Seriously, it's buy and cross your fingers.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Thanks for the quick reply ITI. I'll try my best to describe our basement living/rec room for you.

- The room is 12 feet wide and 30 feet long.
- It's going to be one open room where the seating will be at about 15 feet from the far wall (i.e. middle of the room), where there will likely be a >= 60" LCD or Plasma.
- Behind the seating is just open rec area.
- There will be a drop ceiling and cork flooring
- Drywall over basement concrete

Anyway, I was looking at Paradigm AMS LCR vs Def Tech UIW RLS II or III's. But then one of the local places suggested doing the LCR with Def Tech in-ceiling UIW 83 instead of in-walls. I wasn't sure and googled only to come up with this thread.

I'm leaning towards the front in-walls.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

TIA

OK, I bolded a major concern with in-ceiling LCRs that I see right off the bat.

In-ceiling LCRs, good ones anyway, can be heavy. So in a drop ceiling there are a few challenges presented.

1: Being able to secure the speaker to the metal grid and the tile so that the grid, not the tile supports the weight. This is easier to do with the rears if they need to be in-ceiling because they tend to be lighter and have smaller cutouts.

2: Depending on your ceiling tile it can be tough to make a seal between the flange & the tile. That's important on architectural speakers.

- I assume you are framing around your basement? Just doing straight up drywall over concrete is not going to work for in-walls because they need a stud cavity.

I have speaker recommendations different from what you listed, but I am not sure of what your choices are so of the two I would definitely say to do the Def Tech UIW RLS III over the II if your budget will allow. The bigger drivers will do well in such a long space.

For what it's worth: From my experience with it, I do not care for Pardigm speakers in general. After hearing one of the best they have to offer in the S8 I have no desire to investigate the line further down. I thought it was just awful. We've had clients who've had Paradigm's other lines of speakers and I've always been really underwhelmed. To me, Pardaigm has become the Polk Audio of Canada.

Hope some of this helps!

 

[iamcdn]

OK, I bolded a major concern with in-ceiling LCRs that I see right off the bat.

In-ceiling LCRs, good ones anyway, can be heavy. So in a drop ceiling there are a few challenges presented.

1: Being able to secure the speaker to the metal grid and the tile so that the grid, not the tile supports the weight. This is easier to do with the rears if they need to be in-ceiling because they tend to be lighter and have smaller cutouts.

2: Depending on your ceiling tile it can be tough to make a seal between the flange & the tile. That's important on architectural speakers.

- I assume you are framing around your basement? Just doing straight up drywall over concrete is not going to work for in-walls because they need a stud cavity.

I have speaker recommendations different from what you listed, but I am not sure of what your choices are so of the two I would definitely say to do the Def Tech UIW RLS III over the II if your budget will allow. The bigger drivers will do well in such a long space.

For what it's worth: From my experience with it, I do not care for Pardigm speakers in general. After hearing one of the best they have to offer in the S8 I have no desire to investigate the line further down. I thought it was just awful. We've had clients who've had Paradigm's other lines of speakers and I've always been really underwhelmed. To me, Pardaigm has become the Polk Audio of Canada.

Hope some of this helps!

Thanks again ITI,

Yes, the basement will be framed as we need the space to insulate. I'm trying to get as much info as possible as we meet with our contractor and draftman tomorrow.

I have only heard good things about the Def Techs. I would be willing to listen to other recommendations. The great part about modern day is we can always find products online and get them shipped here.

I appreciate the opinion on the Paradigms too.

 

[AVRat]

iamcdn, I'd like to offer 2 suggestions:
1. Start your own fresh thread to keep things easier to track. You could copy over the already discussed posts to get it started.
2. Similar recent discussion since you're in the planning stage. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72950

 

[PhiPsi32]

Lots of good information here. I have a similar design question and will be posting a new thread regarding in ceiling systems.