I'm starting to see a familiar pattern...

[itschris]

By now, I'm sure everyone had heard about the "photo op" of Air Forice One that literally scared the crap out of everyone and caused pure unadulterated panic in New York.

I'd find it hard to believe just about anyone of good conscience could go on record and say, "What's the big deal?" This was clearly a stupid thing to do...and you could easily argue a lot worse.

What I find particularly interesting, however, was the Administration's response because there's a definate pattern emerging from what I can tell. First, you act a bit surprised the question is being asked. Second, you attempt to guage the tanacity of the reporter and their question to get a sense of probable responses to whichever predetermined answer you decide to give. Third, if the shrug failed to quell the pesky insistance of an honest answer, you lie. You stammer and claim you're really not privy to what's going on and you didn't know. Fourth, get a prominent Senator, Schumar is always good for this... to blame Bush. Yes, this was done yesterday believe it or not. Fifth, once it's determined that the media is turning on them and still asking questions and expecting forthcoming answers, gather the troops and determine the best course of action. Sixth, tell everyone how furious you are and do best job at faking a self-depricating half-hearted explanation. Seventh, locate a subordinate and have them fall on their sword.

 

[MatthewB.]

I just wonder why the Obama Administration had never heard of Photoshop. I mean how many tax payer dollars were spent to fly Air Force One, the jet that went along with them and of course the suspension in trading that occurred, not to mention the work hours lost with all the people panicking.

You take one computer nerd, a picture of the lady liberty, a picture of Air Force One and Photoshop and pay said nerd 100.00 to create the picture and no one is any wiser.

Whoever gave approval to the idea of "Flying AirForce One" low over New York should be worried if they have a job today.

 

[jamie2112]

Here is a blurb http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/air-force-one-backup-rattles-new-york-nerve/

 

[Sheep]

You know you're doomed when a playing flying low (which I find cool and exciting) causes an entire city to go into panic.

Holy ****.

SheepStar

 

[markw]

You know you're doomed when a playing flying low (which I find cool and exciting) causes an entire city to go into panic.

Holy ****.

SheepStar

Had you lived in NYC, or even a city with buildings higher than two stories, and had witnessed 9/11, perhaps you would be singing a different tune.

 

[jamie2112]

Had you witnessed 9/11, perhaps you would be singing a different tune.

I agree to a point. There were 2 fighter jets flying with the plane. People are just looking for something to panic about IMO. The previous administration did so much to strengthen the "Terrorist" threat lie, that the cattle are just doing what is expected of them....

 

[markw]

Remember back around that time...

I agree to a point. There were 2 fighter jets flying with the plane. People are just looking for something to panic about IMO. The previous administration did so much to strengthen the "Terrorist" threat lie, that the cattle are just doing what is expected of them....

... all the talk about sending fighter planes to shoot the errant airliner down before it reached it's target?

Again, it's easy to criticize when one hasn't lived through 9/11, up close and personal, like all of NYC did.

Now, had 9/11 never happened then perhaps you might have a point.

Making it a "secret" was a dumb-arse move, which Obama is successfully blaming on someone else.

 

[jamie2112]

... all the talk about sending fighter planes to shoot the errant airliner down before it reached it's target?

Again, it's easy to criticize when one hasn't lived through 9/11, up close and personal, like all of NYC did.

Now, had 9/11 never happened then perhaps you might have a point.

Making it a "secret" was a dumb-arse move, which Obama is successfully blaming on someone else.

I lost 2 friends on 9/11 in the towers. They were doing a lighting gig and presentation to some conferance. I would say I lived thru it just fine thank you. While I agree that it was a dumb move it was not Obama's doing and he was upset about it from what I have read anyway. I take offense to your hasn't lived thru 9/11 comment. I did personally, but the WHOLE country went thru it not just NYC'rs and NJ people, all of us that live here in the US dealt with the aftermath. I will say that the Bush adminisration scared the country and continued to do so when there was NO real threat (kinda like WMD's that were never found) as a way of taking our liberties away from us and they did a damn good job of it.I really am not going to go any further with this. As always these political threads suck and have no place here in an audio forum even if its in the steam vent....

 

[CraigV]

Had you lived in NYC, or even a city with buildings higher than two stories, and had witnessed 9/11, perhaps you would be singing a different tune.

I just wonder why the Obama Administration had never heard of Photoshop. I mean how many tax payer dollars were spent to fly Air Force One, the jet that went along with them and of course the suspension in trading that occurred, not to mention the work hours lost with all the people panicking.

You take one computer nerd, a picture of the lady liberty, a picture of Air Force One and Photoshop and pay said nerd 100.00 to create the picture and no one is any wiser.

Whoever gave approval to the idea of "Flying AirForce One" low over New York should be worried if they have a job today.

I agree on both counts. I can’t imagine what it would be like to have lived through that nightmare, and yes, anyone who did & looked up to see this plane flying (never mind who owns it) so close to the buildings, it would be very upsetting. Finding out the circumstances afterwards would be just cause for anyone to be angry.

 

[Rickster71]

I lost 2 friends on 9/11 in the towers. They were doing a lighting gig and presentation to some conferance. I would say I lived thru it just fine thank you. While I agree that it was a dumb move it was not Obama's doing and he was upset about it from what I have read anyway. I take offense to your hasn't lived thru 9/11 comment. I did personally, but the WHOLE country went thru it not just NYC'rs and NJ people, all of us that live here in the US dealt with the aftermath. I will say that the Bush adminisration scared the country and continued to do so when there was NO real threat (kinda like WMD's that were never found) as a way of taking our liberties away from us and they did a damn good job of it.I really am not going to go any further with this. As always these political threads suck and have no place here in an audio forum even if its in the steam vent....

Hi Jamie, how's the West Coast?

I think it's just a case of people reacting differently, to the same experience.

For example, my wife still covers her eyes during a scary movie; even though "It's only a movie, it's not real."
She's too cold in the winter, too hot in the summer, and the whole time it seems just fine to me.

Some months after 9/11 a friend of mine was out in the back yard with me.
I live about 30 minutes from McGuire AFB, and that day a large cargo jet came over unusually low.
My friend dropped to his knees in a panic. It's seems some people have an involuntary response to things.

So when something, or anything happens, and just 10% of the people panic in such an overpopulated place as NYC .
It's still a S*** Load of people.
I won't go into the politics, because it isn't political. This is simply about the psychology of fear.

 

[markw]

You can take offense all you want, but it doesn't change things.

I lost 2 friends on 9/11 in the towers. They were doing a lighting gig and presentation to some conferance. I would say I lived thru it just fine thank you. While I agree that it was a dumb move it was not Obama's doing and he was upset about it from what I have read anyway. I take offense to your hasn't lived thru 9/11 comment. I did personally, but the WHOLE country went thru it not just NYC'rs and NJ people, all of us that live here in the US dealt with the aftermath. I will say that the Bush adminisration scared the country and continued to do so when there was NO real threat (kinda like WMD's that were never found) as a way of taking our liberties away from us and they did a damn good job of it.I really am not going to go any further with this. As always these political threads suck and have no place here in an audio forum even if its in the steam vent....

You can intellectualize all you want about what you think people should feel, but unless you've walked in their shoes, you have no basis for reality. And again, you can say the whole country lived it but don't try to tell me that you felt the impact of those hours and days as much as those of us here who witnessed it first hand and lived through the aftermath for the following days and weeks. Entire parts of the city was shut down for weeks, mass transit was a mess and travel to and from work was disrupted for weeks as well, not to mention the air.

I'm sorry for the loss of two co-workers but let the families of your two dead buddies post here and say the New Yorkers over-reacted. They have more of a right than you do. You really don't have a dog in this fight.

You lived through it fine because all it was to you was a great TV show. You weren't impacted at all. Your friends families might have felt some of the power of that day along with tremendous sorrow, but you're just trying to cash in on some of their glory.

Face it, Obama had an a-hole plan this. And now he's blaming him for his appointing the wrong guy for the job in the first place. Ya gotta wonder how many more are out there, just waiting to go public with their ineptitude.

Lemme tell ya something I learned from my first wife: Once you've been involved in a high speed rear-end collision while stopped, whenever you hear squealing brakes behind you, you tend to freeze up.

 

[jamie2112]

My point has been made. I am trying to cash in on THEIR glory. I am not asking to feel sorry for me or them.I really can't say what I think of your HOLYER than Thou speech here, but if we were in another situation it would be a bit different I am sure of this! I wasn't impacted at all...you A****** I had just started the company with a few friends and 2 of them died that day...I am pissed off now boy you arrogant toolbag I was dealing with their wifes and family as we knew nothing. You are just showing how IGNORANT you are Mark, Oh yeah you must be the guy holding the torch for the New Yorkers who want to keep rehashing the 9/11 terror and making all us NON_New Yorkers feel bad for you. I am Seriously pissed that you find yourself so above us because you live in NJ. Its not NYC so I GUESS YOU WERE NOT AFFECTED either.....I have to go take a walk to keep my violent side from rising to Markw's stupid analogy.......UNBELIEVEABLE dude you are turning into a real tool..........Jamie

 

[jamie2112]

I HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE NOW I AM SO PISSED.WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE MARKW? I wasn't affected at all? I posted in another thread cause I was looking at it at the time.......Cajones huh? I don't have any HUH? whatever you toolbag. You are a punk and I would love to see you on the street little man. You don't know me and you better thank your lucky little NJ butt that you don't cause I would be on a plane tonight to NYC buddy. I don't play likr that and you have made some very strong statements and I would love to call you on them in person.....I am done talking to you little punk......

 

[markw]

Jamie, you ignorant slut!

My point has been made. I am trying to cash in on THEIR glory. I am not asking to feel sorry for me or them.I really can't say what I think of your HOLYER than Thou speech here, but if we were in another situation it would be a bit different I am sure of this! I wasn't impacted at all...you A****** I had just started the company with a few friends and 2 of them died that day...I am pissed off now boy you arrogant toolbag I was dealing with their wifes and family as we knew nothing. You are just showing how IGNORANT you are Mark, Oh yeah you must be the guy holding the torch for the New Yorkers who want to keep rehashing the 9/11 terror and making all us NON_New Yorkers feel bad for you. I am Seriously pissed that you find yourself so above us because you live in NJ. Its not NYC so I GUESS YOU WERE NOT AFFECTED either.....I have to go take a walk to keep my violent side from rising to Markw's stupid analogy.......UNBELIEVEABLE dude you are turning into a real tool..........Jamie

What I find intolerable is people that have no dog in this race feel they have a right to comment on those who do.

My response was to sheep. You weren't even in the picture, but you internalized it, jumped right in, and here we are...

You can have your own feelings, but to put down those that have lived through this before when you have not shows a serious head-up buttedness.

Try telling a couple who lost a baby that you know how they should feel. Go ahead... I double-dog dare you.

And, FWIW, I live in the shadow of NYC and witnesed, first hand, the collapse of the second tower and I worked in the city frequently then. Not that day, but the commute the next few weeks was hell. So, yeah, I DO have a dog in this race and for all intents and purposes, have more of an interest in this event than you, or practically anyone else here, do.

So, I might ask, who are you, or any other provencials, to tell "us" how to feel about this, which was the crux of my initial statement?

 

[itschris]

Well this took a turn I didn't see coming. Jaimie, I think there are many people who feel their pain is unique... not just in this case but in all trajedies. Many people feel they corner the market on dispair because of how bad they feel and often times they cannot reconcile just how acute that pain is so they feel it must be something unique to them. When my wife's mother died, for almost 2 years Nancy couldn't accept it. She was extremely close to her mother and honestly believed that her bond with her mother was unique and that "no one" could understand how she felt. It was the grief, and the shellshocked mindset that takes over.

Mark feels his experience is different than yours... it is.. but not more or less valid, troublesome or painful. Just different. You had to live the loss of your friends through your friendships lost and through the hearts of their survivors. Perhpas Mark doesn't quite get that.

Either way... I'm pretty much aggivated by the occurance in general. I've already read that the President pretty much has to be made aware of any Air Force One movements, so I doubt the whole truth is being told, though I do bet he's furious... after the fact. This was a PR nightmare.

Let's lay off all the personal slights in all of these threads. There's so much great discussion, insightful commentary that brings to light ideas that we can all learn from because we're such a diverse group. Let's keep it that way.

 

[jamie2112]

What I find intolerable is people that have no dog in this race feel they have a right to comment on those who do.

My response was to sheep. You weren't even in the picture, but you internalized it, jumped right in, and here we are...

You can have your own feelings, but to put down those that have lived through this before when you have not shows a serious head-up buttedness.

Try telling a couple who lost a baby that you know how they should feel. Go ahead... I double-dog dare you.

And, FWIW, I live in the shadow of NYC and witnesed, first hand the collapse of the second tower and I worked in the city frequently then. Not that day, but the commute the next few weeks was hell. So, yeah, I DO have a dog in this race.

So, I might ask, who are you, or any other provencials, to tell "us" how to feel about this?

Whatever you say must be right. Enjoy being right......I feel sorry for people like you........too much.

 

[adwilk]

I debated even posting in this thread... its... well... it really depicts the heartache from very different perspectives, but still very real on both accounts. To tell someone they cant feel a certain way or shouldnt because their experience differs from yours is just wrong, Mark. Its very obvious how "real" and painful Jamie's experience was by watching the anger fly off my monitor when reading his posts. I'll add that emotion can be very difficult to convey in simple text, but believe me its there. It was hard to read. I've NEVER seen him bow up like that and while not out of character obviously, it still is the exception I'm sure.

Rick, very interesting point. Perhaps it is a psychology thing, but the parameters of the event do "stink" of political garbage. It was a problem that could have been avoided and it just wasnt. The biggest problem with America/ns is the blatant lack of responsibility. If our "mighty" leader can't own a mistake, why should the citizens, and unfortunately from our playgrounds to our corporate offices scapegoats are running rampant. I'm a "big picture" guy (no pun intended) and what happened yesterday is no different in many ways with a lot of the problems we face.

I'm not upset that they did what they did. Sorry, NYC... I know that had to be scary. I get it... BUT its the aftermath that represents a much larger problem in my book and that path is much much scarier.

 

[jamie2112]

I am pissed because some self rightous PUNK just told me that my friends deaths were not valid. My grief wasn't valid because I was not in NYC that day. Sorry to all of you that are reading this but I have never been this pissed without doing something about it. Its kind of hard to express anger in a forum situation but rest assured I am madder then H***. This thing normally doesn't bother my but when you attack the memories of those who died that day(NYC'RS or not) you become a TOOL and holier than thou......Once again sorry to those who are seeing my frustration with a certain member here who is better than the rest of us......In a nutshell thats what was said.....TOOL

 

[adwilk]

I am pissed because some self rightous PUNK just told me that my friends deaths were not valid. My grief wasn't valid because I was not in NYC that day. Sorry to all of you that are reading this but I have never been this pissed without doing something about it. Its kind of hard to express anger in a forum situation but rest assured I am madder then H***. This thing normally doesn't bother my but when you attack the memories of those who died that day(NYC'RS or not) you become a TOOL and holier than thou......Once again sorry to those who are seeing my frustration with a certain member here who is better than the rest of us......In a nutshell thats what was said.....TOOL

Yeah, dude... That sucks and it wasnt fair that he called you out like that. I, for one, certainly dont think you're out of line in the least. You make a statement like he did, somebody's coming after ya.. plain and simple. I got your back, but I'm bettin you wont need it...

 

[markw]

Partial text of PM to Ajmie, fom an ongoing conversation

"Our last posts crossed.

First off, you never, ever mentoned those guys worked for you in a company you just started and you had to console their families. All you said was that you "knew two guys". Big difference. As such, you did have a dog in that race. A big dog. For that comment , I see your anger and apologize.

Second, look at my original post. It was a response to sheep (who conveniently disappeared after that).

It was a simple, one-line response to him for "laughing" at the NY'ers paniced reaction to what they perceived as possibly another 9/11, nothing else. Reference my post where i mentioned my first wife being rear-ended.

I was NOT dissing anyone else's experiences on 9/11.

When you came on with that "I take offense..." stuff I went into high defense mode, as I am wont to do.

Personally, I think we BOTH over-reacted due to our experiences.

But, just know that my initial response was not aimed at you. It was aimed at some canadian who had nothing to do with 9/11. Heck, I don't think he even entered puberty when it happened."