I think the rules must be broken (Surround speaker positioning and matching for video games)

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Erice Dice1

Enthusiast
Hello all.

First of all I would like to point out that I personally use a 7.1 surround configuration thus most of this open and free-for-all discussion will be addressed mainly from the opinions and thoughts of a 7.1 guy (Onkyo ht-s9400Thx Htib) who uses his system 95% for video games) but I think the principles discussed here are applicable to any surround system configuration that is primarily focused on video games.

After doing a lot of research, both listening and reading, I´ve come to the conclusion that a few speaker placement and timbre matching rules need to be changed or revised when it comes to surround speakers when using your home theater mostly or entirely for games.

It even comes to my mind; should it even be called a "home theater"? as far as I know one does not go to a theater to play video games.

Ok maybe I got a bit over the line there but please do think about it for a second; many of the speaker placement "rules" and "advice" I see on forums and officially on Dolby, DTS and THX sites basically suggest one or more of the following;

1.- Surround and Back surround speakers can/should be placed close to the walls or rather "wall-mounted", the first on the side walls a bit behind the listening area and on the back wall for the surround backs (hence the name). This is my current configuration.

2.- Surround speakers should be placed above ear height, more or less the same with surround backs. Again my current configuration.

3.- Since maybe 90% of the audio information is rendered through the front stage, surrounds do not necessarily need to be timbre matched to their front stage counterparts and are generally conceived as "none critical" and since frequencies below 150hz are rarely reproduced trough the surround speakers you can use smaller speakers in comparison to the front or "main" speakers (no general consensus on this but a rough number)

Now I take it this advice and rules apply to a nearly 100% movies and even multi-channel music scheme but this does not take in account several implications and differences that video games have when compared particularly to movies;

Games are by far more dynamic than movies regarding panning; this is particularly true with 3d games since one as a player has the ability to turn the character on a 360 degree and thus the sound localization from dialog to sound effects, gun fire, explosions, etc. is completely controllable by the player meaning that any subtle difference in timbre, height or size of drivers is easily noticeable when panning in a 360 degree fashion.

1.-There are two things to consider regarding point 1;
1.1 First I know that our ears and brains perceive sounds coming from behind differently from sounds coming from the front.
1.2 BUT placing the surround speakers close to the wall as opposite from the fronts and center being on speaker stands 4" to 6" away from the walls does indeed create a highly noticeable change in timbre thus rendering a seamless 360 degree transition impossible. (At least Audyssey 2eq nor manual eq has not been able by far to fix this for me).
Obviously the former issue is greatly augmented by using speakers with different drivers, sizes and timbre characteristics than the ones used on front.

2.- More even so, placing the surround speakers above ear level creates a non desirable effect for panning; things just sound awfully different, please consider it is supposed to be the exact same sound but coming from a different direction.

3.-This statement is far from true when playing video games; surround sounds can and will go down as low or as high as the incorrectly considered "mains" in terms of Hz because of the panning possibilities stated above.

Now trying to find some solution for this issues I shall dare to express the following;

All speakers should be considered as "mains" in a multichannel environment in terms of placement and speaker match when uniquely used for games.

All speakers should be placed so that a seamless transition from 0 to 360 is achieved (I´m thinking all speakers on stands at ear level? Same distance from the listener? all the same distance from the walls?)

Now please notice I´m not trying to discover the universal cure for all speaker diseases here I´m ultimately looking for advice from what my personal logic tells me would probably work; I still believe Dolby´s placement advice is to be followed but adequately for video games (let´s not forget video game sound design also uses these formats, either Dolby, DTS or THX).

Final thoughts;

I have a fairly treated room in order to get rid of a few early reflections that may be coloring the sound on my surrounds but I don´t think that is the issue, I think it responds to the difference between the fronts placed farther from the walls and L,C,R and them being larger than SR, SL, SBL and SBR (two woofers instead of one).

Any thoughts, advice and information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I'm a 5.1 guy - mainly due to space limitations. My surrounds are smaller versions of my L/R speakers, stand mounted, at ear height. This is the best setup for me. I use my system for music, movies, and video games.

I think ear height for surrounds was a recommendation for multichannel music. But, movies and video games also can have multichannel music. I think in terms of multiple point sources rather that a diffuse sound field.

Jim
 
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Erice Dice1

Enthusiast
I think in terms of multiple point sources rather that a diffuse sound field.

Jim
Exactly, so how has these setup been working for you? what do you think about the 360 degree transition? can you hear a seamless transition when turning your character while playing a FPS for example?
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I think it works pretty well. 5.1 has it's limitations but what I'm doing is probably the best I can hope for. My surrounds sound pretty much identical to my L/Rs. I actually debated whether or not to spend the extra money on bigger L/Rs, I probably would have been fine with Studio 10s all around.

I think the setup that had a lot of potential is the DTS processing that added two width speakers to a 7.1 setup. Nobody talks about that anymore. If it were at all practical in my space, I would want that.

Jim
 
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Erice Dice1

Enthusiast
I think it works pretty well. 5.1 has it's limitations but what I'm doing is probably the best I can hope for. My surrounds sound pretty much identical to my L/Rs. I actually debated whether or not to spend the extra money on bigger L/Rs, I probably would have been fine with Studio 10s all around.

I think the setup that had a lot of potential is the DTS processing that added two width speakers to a 7.1 setup. Nobody talks about that anymore. If it were at all practical in my space, I would want that.

Jim
Yeah that sounds awesome, but anyways I don´t think we´ll be seeing Dolby Atmos or X in videogames any time soon, still I think a regular 5.1 or 7.1 configuration correctly positioned can get the job done very well.

You know what, I will probably build stands for my remaining speakers and hear how that works for me with the transitions from channel to channel; that´s how you´ve setup your system right?
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
Yeah. My surrounds are on stands flanking my couch. They're just slightly behind my ears.
 
S

Stampede

Enthusiast
Hi Erice,

I am a gamer also, and you are right that games and movies are different kettle of fish. Generally speaking you less accurate with sound localisation behind you.Also I think there a difference between localisation of speakers and positioning in a sound field, which is what you looking for.

I find that a a good set of headphones with virtual surround works much better for games then a dedicated surround system at a fraction of the cost.

That being said, Starwars Battlefront with Full Atmos Surround is so awesome sounding but there is so much going on that its distracting to the gameplay.

Back to the question, depending on the distance of your rears to the listening position, if close..raise it above..if far ear level. Listen and judge for yourself.
 
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Erice Dice1

Enthusiast
Hi Erice,

I am a gamer also, and you are right that games and movies are different kettle of fish. Generally speaking you less accurate with sound localisation behind you.Also I think there a difference between localisation of speakers and positioning in a sound field, which is what you looking for.

I find that a a good set of headphones with virtual surround works much better for games then a dedicated surround system at a fraction of the cost.

That being said, Starwars Battlefront with Full Atmos Surround is so awesome sounding but there is so much going on that its distracting to the gameplay.

Back to the question, depending on the distance of your rears to the listening position, if close..raise it above..if far ear level. Listen and judge for yourself.
Thank you good sir. I am going to try with different speaker positions and generating a credible sound field, my main target right now is to leave a considerable or the same amount of space between the walls and my surrounds and backs so I´ll be posting results as soon as I can start experimenting with this.

Regarding 7.1 virtual headsets, I do have tried but maybe it´s me but I don´t get that feeling of spaciousness with them it all sounds so processed and fake to me that I came to realize it´s definitely not what I´m looking for; as they say "it´s not my cup of tea" for some people it works, for me it just doesn´t.

Cheers and happy new year to you all.
 

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