HT upgrade path - which components first?

T

Trezl

Junior Audioholic
I started a thread on projectors, and was pointed here for help on how to decide just which components of my home theater to upgrade first.

Some background - my home theater was built by the previous owner of the house. Most components were installed around 2004/2005 and I bought the house in 2006. It's a beautiful custom built room, and everything works great, but I'm interested in upgrading to new technology (DolbyHD, DTS-HD, 1080p projection, etc) over the next couple years. I plan on saving/budgeting to replace components over time.

I apologize, but I still don't have 5 posts, so I can't post links yet.

My theater:

Sony VPL-HS51 720p projector (reviewed on Audioholics)

Denon AVR-3802 7.1 receiver

Atlantic Technology 4200e THX Select 5.1 speaker system (I actually have 7.1 - I believe the 2 rear speakers are also AT 4200s, but not sure). - reviewed on audioholics

Denon DVM-4800 5disc DVD player

DVDO iScan HD+ video scaler (have the DVD player through this to scale the 480p up to 720p)

PS3, Xbox360 - PS3 will by my BluRay player for a long time to come. :)



I think the 3 things to look at are the projector, AVR and speakers.

I'm looking at the Epson 1080UB projector and Yamaha 663 receiver currently. Would love thoughts on those and alternatives in that price range.

As for speakers, I think these are pretty good, but would love to hear if there are issues with them to be aware of.

Thanks for any replies. I'm loving the site so far, and appreciate the community help I've already gotten.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Order I would be thinking of:

Projector, agreed. But screen too. They should be chosen together, IMO. There's everything from DIY to uber expensive AT screens. You can choose from a variety of gain as well depending on the PJ you select, and the square footage of display that you want.

If AT works for you, that would be sweet, IMO.

Then I would look at HT seating. You'd be surprised at how much it can change the movie experience for all viewers.

Speakers before receiver.

If receiver before speakers, the only concern really with the 663 is if it has enough power for you. But you can add an outboard amp to it if you wanted as well. The 663 would've been a poor choice for me, but this is particular/personal to my HT. I like the Onkyo 805 for pure value. I think someone just got one NIB for $450, which is an absurd deal.

In fact, if you are happy with your speakers, I might even look at acoustically treating your room before changing those. HT setups are generally desired to be quite dead acoustically.

Don't forget about light control. If you have poor light control, don't waste your money on an ultra high contrast PJ.
 
T

Trezl

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for the reply!


Room is custom built and in pretty good shape. Speakers are fully hidden in the walls behind fabric wall covering. Walls are all foam insulated so you only hear muffled sound outside the room even when it's cranked up pretty good.

Lighting - I have a 3 light zones controlled however I want (recessed ceiling lights, rail lighting along the top of the wall, and sconces on the walls). Room is fully enclosed, no windows, so I get as dark as I want, too. :)

The screen is a mounted Stewart Luxus ScreenWall (http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/screenwall.htm). This thing cost like $2k so I wasn't expecting to replace it. Is it something I should be concerned about with a new projector? It's either 96" or 100" or something in that range.

Are you saying that the Yamaha won't be able to power the speakers? It's that much less than the Denon I have? I'm interested in upgrading the Denon for DolbyHD, DTS-HD and HDMI in/out. Other than that the Denon does work pretty well.

I understand that you pick speakers before receiver. But if my current speaker setup is good, I'm good looking for a new receiver that matches them, right? Then it is just whether or not I should spend the money upgrading for some of the new HD audio tech, right?


I agree seating is important. The room actually has 2 couches in it now. The back half of the room is 4-6" higher than the front half, so the back couch is raised above the front one. I'd love to one day get some fancy seating though!

I guess I'll need to take some pictures this week and post them now :)


One other note - the only real "noise" in the room is the sound of air blowing in when the AC kicks on. I'm interested in absorbing this noise in the vent if possible.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you should keep your 3802 (150 wpc into 6 ohms):
http://usa.denon.com/avr3802_productsheet.pdf

and just buy either the Panasonic DMP-BD50 (Internal Decodes TrueHD/DTS-MA and sends out 5.1 Analog) or the upcoming Sony 550 BD player (7.1 Analog Output) and send to your 3802's 7.1 Analog Input.

That will give you more budget for speakers.

The Epson Home Cinema 1080UB is a great choice.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I would just change the PJ and then as DT stated, use your current AVR and get a BR player that will decode via analog.

The only reason you need to change speakers is if you dont like the ones you have. Is something missing on the audio end? Maybe you just need to add a big boy sub and be done with it.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for the reply!
My pleasure.

Room is custom built and in pretty good shape. Speakers are fully hidden in the walls behind fabric wall covering. Walls are all foam insulated so you only hear muffled sound outside the room even when it's cranked up pretty good.
I wasn't thinking about isolation so much as first reflection points, and bass trapping. The smaller the room, the more you will want to bass trap.

Lighting - I have a 3 light zones controlled however I want (recessed ceiling lights, rail lighting along the top of the wall, and sconces on the walls). Room is fully enclosed, no windows, so I get as dark as I want, too. :)
All my money goes into gear, so I try not to think about automation! If I ever do, an RF remote will be the first thing... sigh :p

The screen is a mounted Stewart Luxus ScreenWall (http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/screenwall.htm). This thing cost like $2k so I wasn't expecting to replace it. Is it something I should be concerned about with a new projector? It's either 96" or 100" or something in that range.
Well, shoot, you already have it, and so I must presume its a perfect size as well. Two things you can look at for now while shopping are lumens of the PJ (and see if there are reports at how close the actual is to paper specs, sometimes its close and sometimes its not), and see what the "comfort zone" as far as zoom/shift is concerned. I remember projector people had some nice little graphs for that, recommendations really.

Are you saying that the Yamaha won't be able to power the speakers? It's that much less than the Denon I have? I'm interested in upgrading the Denon for DolbyHD, DTS-HD and HDMI in/out. Other than that the Denon does work pretty well.
This is a total ASSumption, but a 3xxx series of Denon has always been considered pretty decent AFAIK. I don't expect an entry level of most any brand to be quite as nice, even though yours is probably significantly older. If it was me with a 663, Id get a used amp. Something reputable like Rotel, Sunfire, NAD, Outlaw, Emotiva, etc. But I have a large room, with significant distances seated from speakers, with seating for 8, acoustically treated, with speakers that are less than 8 ohm rated.

I understand that you pick speakers before receiver. But if my current speaker setup is good, I'm good looking for a new receiver that matches them, right? Then it is just whether or not I should spend the money upgrading for some of the new HD audio tech, right?
Yes, and as the above posters seem to imply, as long as you're not downgrading the amp section too much. One issue with m-ch analogs to be very aware of is the possibility of LFE cuts. Also, if getting 5.1 m-ch analogs, and you got 7.1, I believe its not possible to matrix.

I don't know if they missed your statement about your PS3. A new (and desirable, not a cheapo) BD player ain't cheap yet. That cost, with lets say an HDMI switcher, can afford you a new midline receiver.

I agree seating is important. The room actually has 2 couches in it now. The back half of the room is 4-6" higher than the front half, so the back couch is raised above the front one. I'd love to one day get some fancy seating though!
That measurement is meaningless without knowing several others. For future reference, you can use this Riser Height Calculator. The riser I built is probably 4x as tall as yours. I also found a great deal on seating here that I discovered in the Deals section of this forum. These are the seats that I bought. Free shipping, and in-home 5yr warranty on the whole set was only $50 more. I have seen a recent firesale on fancier Berklines at AVS for more money. That sale ended quickly.

One other note - the only real "noise" in the room is the sound of air blowing in when the AC kicks on. I'm interested in absorbing this noise in the vent if possible.
Yeah. Audioholics has an article dealing with this. Too involved for me. Ain't happening, no way. ;)

Cheerio.
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
It sounds like you have a pretty good system now. I wouldn't be in any hurry to replace your speakers. They are pretty decent. I would consider replacing the sub with a pair of larger ones. I would also suggest acoustic treatments before any speaker upgrade. Adding a few bass traps and treating your reflection points will improve your sound a lot more than new speakers regardless of how big your budget might be.

I'm not up to speed on projectors so I can't help you there other than to suggest that JVC makes a model that's supposed to be really good.

For amplification, I'm guessing you really just need to add HDMI for Blue Ray and the new audio codecs. I wouldn't worry too much about being able to decode them because your PS3 will decode internally and pass PCM over HDMI. If your current receiver is adequately powering your setup, you might think about adding a pre/pro and demoting your receiver to being a power amp. Eventually you could swap it out for a power amp if you decide you need more juice.

Otherwise I'd look at midrange receivers from Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Onkyo and Integra. I would just look for a receiver that will drive your speakers adequately, has enough HDMI inputs and can at least accept LPCM over HDMI. Just about everything else is marketing although an Audyssey or equivalent setup system is nice to have.

Jim
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
HT system

My theater:
Sony VPL-HS51 720p projector (reviewed on Audioholics)
Denon AVR-3802 7.1 receiver
Atlantic Technology 4200e THX Select 5.1 speaker system (I actually have 7.1 - I believe the 2 rear speakers are also AT 4200s, but not sure). - reviewed on audioholics
Denon DVM-4800 5disc DVD player
DVDO iScan HD+ video scaler (have the DVD player through this to scale the 480p up to 720p)
PS3, Xbox360 - PS3 will by my BluRay player for a long time to come. :)
Wow,
That is some nice gear you inherited. That is probably about $10k worth of equipment, plus the cost of the custom room. In most peoples "theater" room you would find some satelites or Bose speakers.

Here are some ideas on how to maximize the performance of your current gear:
1. Hold onto that scaller. It is a high end product and should scale to 1080i and 1080p and do a better job that nearly all DVD players and Receivers.
2. Not sure on the quality of the Denon DVD changer, set it to 480i and let the DVDO do the work. Consider using the PS3 for DVD playback and changer for CDs.
3. The current speakers are very good, especially for movies. It would cost a significant amount for an incremental speaker upgrade and you would likely loose your current mounting location with grill cloth.
4. Before upgrading the projector, check your viewing distance and screen size ratio. 1080p might not be that much of an upgrade.

Upgrade ideas:
1. You can get a receiver that will decode the latest formats for around $4-500. You could pick up one of these and add a nice emotiva amp to deliver plenty of power to your cureent speakers. Otherwise consider more powerful receivers in the $1k range. Don't worry too much about scalling because you already have an excelent DVDO scaller and the PS3 does a great job of upscalling DVDs.
2. If you are really into 2 channel music, set up a seperate system in another room.
3. Prices on 1080p front projectors are getting pretty reasonable. There are several options in the $2-3k price range. Projectorcentral.com is another good site for reviews.
4. Dual subs and equipment to help you EQ them properly.
5. RF touchscreen type remote to control all of your gear. Check out the products from Harmony and URC.
6. Popcorn machine for that movie theater smell.

Enjoy your current and new gear. If you ever start to think that your current system is not good enough, just pay $10 and see a movie at the local theater.
 
P

PeterWhite

Audioholic
I don't understand why you need to upgrade anything. Is there a problem with the system that you have identified?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not up to speed on projectors so I can't help you there other than to suggest that JVC makes a model that's supposed to be really good.
I've got a JVC, and IMO, its nothing less than mind blowing.

If your current receiver is adequately powering your setup, you might think about adding a pre/pro and demoting your receiver to being a power amp. Eventually you could swap it out for a power amp if you decide you need more juice.
Good point, Jim.

For Trezl, I might not have been specific enough about m-ch analogs, even though I assume its completely a moot point for you. Even with 7.1 analogs, I believe most of your playback will be in 5.1, unless the actual disc was mastered in 6.1/7.1. There aren't any players that I am aware of that internally matrix and send via analogs. Maybe the new ones do, but I'd be extremely surprised.

I don't understand why you need to upgrade anything. Is there a problem with the system that you have identified?
It's a diagnosable disease, my friend.... :rolleyes:
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Oops. Yeah, I did miss the PS3 part.:D

I guess you do need a receiver with HDMI then.

Okay, in that case, look at this 130wpc Onkyo 805 for $529:
http://www.ecost.com/Detail/Receivers/Onkyo/TXSR805+REF/40650016.aspx
As an owner of the 805 I wanted to throw out another recommendation for this receiver. The amount of power works for my apartment living room, but you may want to consider/audition an amp (as per Josten's suggestion) just in case the sound is not full enough.

The other thing to think about while you're upgrading is media storage. Not sure where you're keeping the CD/DVD/BDs these days, but you may want to consider some sort of storage solution whether it be built-ins or drawers.
 
P

PeterWhite

Audioholic
It's a diagnosable disease, my friend.... :rolleyes:
I'm reminded of the guy who spent about $5,000 on a hi-fi system at my friend's high end shop in Boston back in 1974, the big B&W speakers with the electrostatic screen on top, Radford electronics, Lynn LP12 table, Revox tape deck etc. and before leaving turned to my friend and asked, "What type of music do you suggest?"

This isn't directed at the OP's question, only "jostenmeat's" reply to me. ;-)
 
T

Trezl

Junior Audioholic
I'm reminded of the guy who spent about $5,000 on a hi-fi system at my friend's high end shop in Boston back in 1974, the big B&W speakers with the electrostatic screen on top, Radford electronics, Lynn LP12 table, Revox tape deck etc. and before leaving turned to my friend and asked, "What type of music do you suggest?"

This isn't directed at the OP's question, only "jostenmeat's" reply to me. ;-)
Laugh, yes yes. I know most of my inquiry is because of the disease of unsatisfaction. :)

I'm not in a hurry to upgrade, I know I got a very sweet setup currently! I just am watching Blu-rays now on my PS3 and I want to make sure the experience is maximized. When people start talking about how amazing 1080p is, or how sound is just so much better in the HD formats, I get jealous and don't want to miss out!

I appreciate all of your comments and help. I feel good about where I'm at, and have motivation to save for the right upgrades in the future.

This site rocks, as does its community.
 
T

Trezl

Junior Audioholic
Wow,
That is some nice gear you inherited. That is probably about $10k worth of equipment, plus the cost of the custom room. In most peoples "theater" room you would find some satelites or Bose speakers.

Here are some ideas on how to maximize the performance of your current gear:
1. Hold onto that scaller. It is a high end product and should scale to 1080i and 1080p and do a better job that nearly all DVD players and Receivers.
2. Not sure on the quality of the Denon DVD changer, set it to 480i and let the DVDO do the work. Consider using the PS3 for DVD playback and changer for CDs.
3. The current speakers are very good, especially for movies. It would cost a significant amount for an incremental speaker upgrade and you would likely loose your current mounting location with grill cloth.
4. Before upgrading the projector, check your viewing distance and screen size ratio. 1080p might not be that much of an upgrade.

Upgrade ideas:
1. You can get a receiver that will decode the latest formats for around $4-500. You could pick up one of these and add a nice emotiva amp to deliver plenty of power to your cureent speakers. Otherwise consider more powerful receivers in the $1k range. Don't worry too much about scalling because you already have an excelent DVDO scaller and the PS3 does a great job of upscalling DVDs.
2. If you are really into 2 channel music, set up a seperate system in another room.
3. Prices on 1080p front projectors are getting pretty reasonable. There are several options in the $2-3k price range. Projectorcentral.com is another good site for reviews.
4. Dual subs and equipment to help you EQ them properly.
5. RF touchscreen type remote to control all of your gear. Check out the products from Harmony and URC.
6. Popcorn machine for that movie theater smell.

Enjoy your current and new gear. If you ever start to think that your current system is not good enough, just pay $10 and see a movie at the local theater.
Love the scaler and it's not going anywhere! While the PS3 does a great job, the wife refuses to let me get rid of the 5 disc DVD changer (we have kids and she loves the convenience of having 2-3 of their movies in the changer at all times).

Viewing distance is about 6ft in the front row (which I would call the primary position) and 8ft or so to the back.

The room is pretty much for movies and video games, I have other systems to work on for music, though we listen to music casually in the background.

I've got the remote and popcorn handled for now :)

Thanks!
 
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