How to best set up the system for music and movies

R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
So I plan to get a Denon AVR-X4200W in combo with a NAD C375 (or I might change that out with another amp) - and my main plan was the let the reciever controll the music from streamed tidal or so - and then let the reciever send the music to the NAD - which then sends it to the front speakers (for stereo music listening) - and if I can also use two subs for stereo bass..

Now as I've heard the reciever is usualy not the best guy in town to threat the music.. and thus it would be better to let the stereo amp do this in the first place.. but how do I wire that all together when I don't want to switch around cables - but I still want to be able to swap between stereo music listening and 5.2 surround movie watching?

The NAD amp is also looking for an alternative - just havent found anything that is close to that price-range with that kind of power out and then better sound..
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The problem is having both the Denon and NAD connected to your speakers. If they are both ever on at the same time, it will not be good for your speakers!
I am doing what you want to, but I am using a relatively inexpensive set of Klipsch speakers for HT and a separate pair for music.
 
R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Ah, I was only planing to have one of them connected to the speakers.. but for instance one setup would be to connect music-source to the reciever - then stereo out goes to NAD which amps it and sends that to the front speakers - the remaining channels all go straight from the reciever to the speakers.

But as I understood its better for stereo music to pass that straight to the NAD and then to the front speakers (never involving the reciever at all for pure stereo music listening)

If that made any sense? :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So I plan to get a Denon AVR-X4200W in combo with a NAD C375 (or I might change that out with another amp) - and my main plan was the let the reciever controll the music from streamed tidal or so - and then let the reciever send the music to the NAD - which then sends it to the front speakers (for stereo music listening) - and if I can also use two subs for stereo bass..

Now as I've heard the reciever is usualy not the best guy in town to threat the music.. and thus it would be better to let the stereo amp do this in the first place.. but how do I wire that all together when I don't want to switch around cables - but I still want to be able to swap between stereo music listening and 5.2 surround movie watching?

The NAD amp is also looking for an alternative - just havent found anything that is close to that price-range with that kind of power out and then better sound..
We get these sort of post regularly. They do not make sense.

There is no conflict between music and HT.

That Denon receiver is high end and will sound as good as the NAD amp, which is an integrated amp. The preamp stages will be no better then the premp stages in the Denon, and may be worse. Certainly there will be no sonic advantage at all, the reverse. The reason is that you will end up with a birds nest of cables and switching, which will almost certainly add noise and especially hum.

If you want more power to you main speakers, then get a power amp and not an integrated amp and connect it to the right and left preouts. To make a difference you will need something in the 250 to 300 watt per channel class.

The next issue is your desire for stereo subs. This is another bad idea. Keeping subs mono reduces adverse room effects. No matter how many subs you have feed them the same signal.

My final comment is that if you don't like the sound coming out of your speakers change your speakers.

The integrated NAD is a big chunk of change, (remember NAD stands for Not Always Dependable) that would be much better spent on better speakers.

You plan is entirely misguided. Rethink it!
 
R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Hi, thanks for a good a well filled response :)

The main idea for the extra amp on the front speakers is to have more power out when running the 5.1.
The reason I go for two instead of one heavy reciever that would cost the same as the two combined is that recievers get new tech all the time and would likely have to be changed when new tech comes up - while the amp really can go on for ages.
now - I'm new to this and dont actually know what the difference is between an integrated amp and a power amp...

the reason for wanting to try out stereo subs are that music tracks are made stereo.. and even if you cant hear orientation of the deep bass - the frequencies will affect each other the same way they would if there were different bass sounds coming from a live play (like a bass guitar on the left side and another bass instrument on the right) - I'm not sure how much difference it will make - but I will certainly try with mono as well like you recomend and see what I fancy more. for 5.2 surround mono is fir sure the way to go since the subwoofer signal is made and catered for as a mono signal.

About there being no difference in sound between amps sounds strange.. isnt that part of why you would look at more than just the watts and functions of the various amps?

I've heard NAD is powerful, but not so good to reproduce music as some other amps - and also that a good dedicated integrates stereo amp will beat most avr recievers with all their tech when it comes to playing music - and thus that it will sound better to not let the reciever be the one handeling your music to the speakers. - you mean this is all false?
I dont know a whole lot about this, but pick up all the tips I get from pages and the local HI-FI shops, and it would make sense if the speakers were not the only part that matter of how things sound.. as people likes different amps for different sets of speakers depending on how they sound together.

So far from looking at alternatives to the NAD (based on tips from various places that NAD might not be so 'fine' sounding) I have looked at alternatives - but it seem all is around 30-100 W per channel @ 8ohm 20-20k.. while the NAD is 150W.. I havent found anything above that - at least under the 2000 dollar price range. Where do you find those 300W amps? or do you use two amps in tandem?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi, thanks for a good a well filled response :)

The main idea for the extra amp on the front speakers is to have more power out when running the 5.1.
The reason I go for two instead of one heavy reciever that would cost the same as the two combined is that recievers get new tech all the time and would likely have to be changed when new tech comes up - while the amp really can go on for ages.
now - I'm new to this and dont actually know what the difference is between an integrated amp and a power amp...

the reason for wanting to try out stereo subs are that music tracks are made stereo.. and even if you cant hear orientation of the deep bass - the frequencies will affect each other the same way they would if there were different bass sounds coming from a live play (like a bass guitar on the left side and another bass instrument on the right) - I'm not sure how much difference it will make - but I will certainly try with mono as well like you recomend and see what I fancy more. for 5.2 surround mono is fir sure the way to go since the subwoofer signal is made and catered for as a mono signal.

About there being no difference in sound between amps sounds strange.. isnt that part of why you would look at more than just the watts and functions of the various amps?

I've heard NAD is powerful, but not so good to reproduce music as some other amps - and also that a good dedicated integrates stereo amp will beat most avr recievers with all their tech when it comes to playing music - and thus that it will sound better to not let the reciever be the one handeling your music to the speakers. - you mean this is all false?
I dont know a whole lot about this, but pick up all the tips I get from pages and the local HI-FI shops, and it would make sense if the speakers were not the only part that matter of how things sound.. as people likes different amps for different sets of speakers depending on how they sound together.

So far from looking at alternatives to the NAD (based on tips from various places that NAD might not be so 'fine' sounding) I have looked at alternatives - but it seem all is around 30-100 W per channel @ 8ohm 20-20k.. while the NAD is 150W.. I havent found anything above that - at least under the 2000 dollar price range. Where do you find those 300W amps? or do you use two amps in tandem?
An pre amp just provides voltage amplification. A power amp provides just power amplification. An integrated amp contains both.

A receiver contains, processor, HDMI board, preamps and power amps, and other things besides.

If you want more power to be noticeable, then you need at least a 200 watt per channel power amp. That will gain you just 3 db, which is the smallest increase that will be noticeable.

You absolutely should not buy an integrated amp. I would just use the receiver, and if you think you need more power on you mains, then add an amp in the 250 to 300 watt per channel class at least. There are a number of manufacturers, like ATI, Crown, Outlaw, Emotiva and many others. I personally use Quad current dumping amps. You can not use amps in tandem. I do however have speakers that have a combination of active and passive crossover. My mains are powered by three 250 watt per channel Quad 909 amps.

The last thing is that even on the bass guitar most of the sound will come from your main speakers and not your sub. All the the sound you would be able to localize will come from the mains and none from the sub.

A receiver will not allow you to have subs in stereo and with good reason. Even in my integrated speakers, the 60 Hz and below part of the signal is mono. Stereo localization is excellent.

It is clear you are a novice and need to take advice before making wasteful purchases.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I'm confused by what you said. You have described what appears to be two different arrangements. In your original post, you said:
… my main plan was the let the (Denon) receiver control the music from streamed tidal or so - and then let the receiver send the music to the NAD - which then sends it to the front speakers (for stereo music listening

I've heard that a good dedicated integrates stereo amp will beat most avr receivers with all their tech when it comes to playing music - and thus that it will sound better to not let the receiver be the one handling your music to the speakers.
If I understand you correctly, you want a way to wire things for music playback so you can use the Denon OR the NAD, but not both at the same time. This will be difficult at best, and a hazard to your speakers and amplifiers at worst. Avoid doing this. You had said your intention was to take advantage of the NAD's possibly better sounding music playback for 2-channel music. I agree with TLS Guy that this is not worth doing. There will be no advantage.

Later, you said:
The main idea for the extra amp on the front speakers is to have more power out when running the 5.1.
That means something different to me. That suggests you intend to use the Denon receiver as the central device and use the NAD only as additional amplification for some of your speakers. If you connect the Denons' PRE-OUT jacks for the Front Left & Right speakers to the NAD's MAIN IN jacks (see photos of the Denon and the NAD below), and if you connect your front left & right speakers to the NAD, it would allow you to use the NAD as an additional power amplifier that would drive only your two main speakers. The Denon would drive all other speakers, such as the center and rear channels. This would provide additional overall power when you listen to movies or multi-channel sound, however, it would by-pass the NAD's pre-amp section.

This would provide some extra power for your front two speakers. I can't say whether you would easily notice a difference. The Denon's rated power for two channels is 125 watts and the NAD is 150 watts. Those two numbers are essentially the same.


 
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R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for two replies with lots of info and insight.
I have a lot of know-how in the IT-world but not so much in the Hi-Fi world as of yet - so I welcome all tips and info on this.

I looked at Emotiva XPA-2 (Emotiva is unfortunately not available anywhere in Norway) and it supplies 500w for both channels at 4 ohm (the Dali Rubicon 8's are set with normal imp of 4 ohm)
However - with the reccomended amp watt stated to 40-250, does this mean I would not need more than 250w per channel at most?

I'm hard pressed to find any amps in the price range (1000 dollars) with more than the 150 watts here.. while the XPA-2 sells for 799 and runs with 500w...

Is there other brands that I may not know of that would run 250w at 4 ohms, and not kill the wallet?

I believe the reason I tought it would be wise to run the music from outside the reciever was that a guy at the Hi-fi shop told me that when dealing with the high voltage and low voltage operations in the same space there would be disturbance. And I understood it as this would distort the sound signal. But this might be only a measurable thing and not audible then? like much else.. (cables etc.)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I'm hard pressed to find any amps in the price range (1000 dollars) with more than the 150 watts here.. while the XPA-2 sells for 799 and runs with 500w...

Is there other brands that I may not know of that would run 250w at 4 ohms, and not kill the wallet?
Always a difficult problem :). My suggestion is that you try using the Denon alone. If you find it is not powerful enough to drive your Dali 8 speakers, you always have the option of adding an additional more powerful outboard amplifier at a later time.
I believe the reason I tought it would be wise to run the music from outside the reciever was that a guy at the Hi-fi shop told me that when dealing with the high voltage and low voltage operations in the same space there would be disturbance. And I understood it as this would distort the sound signal. But this might be only a measurable thing and not audible then? like much else.. (cables etc.)
I find that advice from a guy at the sales shop is always influenced by his desire to sell more gear to the customer. He would probably earn a larger commission if he sold you two receivers instead of one.
 
R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
We don't operate with comission in Norway - but that does not mean he can't be driven by the urge to sell me more gear :)
I would imagine there should be a difference in running the system just from the 125w (2 channel) on all channels and having that extra 250w - but I would not know what I miss unless I get to try it also with an amp. I guess I'm up for a drive coming weekend to a city that has the very setup I look at.. and I will ask them to let me compare the 5.2 with only the Denon runnin (at higher volumes) and then try it again with a high cost amp that gives these 250w or so and see if I can tell the difference.

One problem is often that what I see people use here, is often things from the US - and many times those parts and brands are not available up here in Norway :)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I would imagine there should be a difference in running the system just from the 125w (2 channel) on all channels and having that extra 250w - but I would not know what I miss unless I get to try it also with an amp. I guess I'm up for a drive coming weekend to a city that has the very setup I look at.. and I will ask them to let me compare the 5.2 with only the Denon running (at higher volumes) and then try it again with a high cost amp that gives these 250w or so and see if I can tell the difference,
In the past, I added a separate 2-channel 200 watt/channel amp to an existing older Denon AV receiver that could produce 70 watts/channel. By increasing the power 3×, the difference with my 4 ohm speakers was subtle. If I had to describe it in words, I would say the speakers sounded "less noisy" at higher volume. They played louder without sounding like the amplifier was straining, and the bass was cleaner sounding. I didn't hear it with all types of music, so it took me several weeks before I could say with any confidence that I really did hear a difference.

In the USA, there is a large market in used amplifiers. I've found that amplifiers often last a very long time, and they can be purchased at much lower than new prices.
 
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R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for the reply :) I will do the listening-test also and if I cant really tell a difference from loud listening.. then I might go for only the reciever. I'm also worried from reading about various amps that they may 'color' the sound? As when running 5.2 I certainly dont want the front speakers to sound different from the center and surround.. :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm confused by what you said. You have described what appears to be two different arrangements. In your original post, you said:
If I understand you correctly, you want a way to wire things for music playback so you can use the Denon OR the NAD, but not both at the same time. This will be difficult at best, and a hazard to your speakers and amplifiers at worst. Avoid doing this. You had said your intention was to take advantage of the NAD's possibly better sounding music playback for 2-channel music. I agree with TLS Guy that this is not worth doing. There will be no advantage.

Later, you said:
That means something different to me. That suggests you intend to use the Denon receiver as the central device and use the NAD only as additional amplification for some of your speakers. If you connect the Denons' PRE-OUT jacks for the Front Left & Right speakers to the NAD's MAIN IN jacks (see photos of the Denon and the NAD below), and if you connect your front left & right speakers to the NAD, it would allow you to use the NAD as an additional power amplifier that would drive only your two main speakers. The Denon would drive all other speakers, such as the center and rear channels. This would provide additional overall power when you listen to movies or multi-channel sound, however, it would by-pass the NAD's pre-amp section.

This would provide some extra power for your front two speakers. I can't say whether you would easily notice a difference. The Denon's rated power for two channels is 125 watts and the NAD is 150 watts. Those two numbers are essentially the same.


He does not need an integrated amp. He does not need two preamps. In addition that amp is not powerful enough to make a wit of difference.

As I said if he wants more power then he needs a stereo power amp or two mono blocks giving 250 to 300 watts per channel.

A used Quad 909 would fit the bill nicely. I do not recommend the QSC. Chinese destruction of Quad now seem to be full force.

Quad 909s are more plentiful in Europe than the US. However funnily enough I just snagged one for $405! That will be my ninth 909.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the reply :) I will do the listening-test also and if I cant really tell a difference from loud listening.. then I might go for only the reciever. I'm also worried from reading about various amps that they may 'color' the sound? As when running 5.2 I certainly dont want the front speakers to sound different from the center and surround.. :)
I think you are tuning in to the Audiophools! For many years now there have been a bunch of wealthy enthusiasts, egged on by loony dealers. They have money, but no brains and not a lick of common sense.

We won't steer you wrong here.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I have no idea how pricing might be over there, but have you checked rotel amps . They are of high quality and don't seem too outrageously priced after import here in the states.
But as others are saying there is no point unless you're going for a higher wattage app . Also it just seems practical to see how the Denon sounds without the amp .
 
R

Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
I actually looked at a Rotel amp with 5 channels during the weekend, which was on sale for 3 days (down from 200$ to 120$) - (RMB 1575)
 
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