How do I drive in ceiling speakers?

[pk8183]

I am first going to admit that I am in over my head on this one, but here is what I am trying to accomplish....and thanks in advance for any ideas and help!

I just bought a house that has 4 rooms with in-ceiling speakers, each room also has its own volume control. All the wires are run back to a coat closet.

Since everyone in the house has some type of Apple device, I was going to use an Apple TV as the airplay device, connected via HDMI to a Pioneer VSX-522. I combined the appropriate cables into 4 banana plugs and plugged them into the back of the VSX-522. Basically I turned all the speakers into one speaker coming out of the receiver.

When I start streaming the audio, I get very low volume even though the wall controls are all the way up, and when I turn up the volume on the receiver, I get a TEMP warning and then it shuts down.

I am assuming that bundling all the speakers together is making the receiver work to hard and it is shutting itself down before it overheats.

If that is the case, any suggestions on how to make this work? Do I need an amp to push the speakers, or is there something else I need to look at.

Thanks again for any help. If there is more info you need, please feel free to ask!

 

[ImcLoud]

Welcome to the forum..

For only $19.25 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 6-Channel Speaker Selector | Speaker Selector

Problem is your avr is under powered and not 4 ohm stable, plus you probably do not have impede matching volume controls, so your avr is trying to run 8 speakers wired how ever they wired them...

Wire back to this, and then get a 4 ohm stable amplifier Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812 this 2 ch amp will drive the 8 speakers through that mono price box which will handle the impede matching...

Your avr doesnt have zone 2 capability, so I recommend getting one that does if you want to intergrate it, but you can plug your device rite into that amplifier too with out using your avr...

I can walk you through wiring after you get you amp and selector box, its easy...

Heres an inexpensive AVR that has zone 2 outputs that will plug rite into that amplifier if you want to do it all at once... http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR515/Onkyo-TX-NR515-7.2-Channel-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html that will cost you around $450 with the avr, selector box, and amplifier but it will be done...

 

[pk8183]

Thanks for the quick response!
Am I correct in saying that my current Pioneer receiver won't be able to connect to the AMP? I only bought that one because I had a couple hundred dollars to use at Best Buy.

 

[pk8183]

I ran across this TEAC AH01 Stereo Amplifier with Digital to Analog Converter Black | Accessories4less
and am wondering if I ran the Apple TV Optical out to this converter and then to the monoprice speaker selector if that might work? I am clueless so please dont laugh to hard!

 

[ImcLoud]

I think that teak is overpriced, you can get the apa150 and the above linked avr for the same price and get a lot more...

 

[pk8183]

Is there anyway to make the Pioneer work? This would save me some grief from my wife

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yeah, you can POSSIBLY do it, but it will be 'hokey' at best.

Your volume controls may, or may not be, impedence matching. You really should pull one out of the wall and look at the make and model and let us know exactly what it is.

You really didn't go into the details of how you wired to the VSX-522, but you certainly should not bring non-impedence matched volume controls into a A/V receiver on a single input. If you just took four wires, bundled them together, and shoved them into the 'LEFT' channel, then you are most likely presenting a 2 ohm load to a receiver designed to handle a 6 ohm load. It's killing it.

My expectation is that the volume controls in your walls are not impedence matching, and you WILL want to get a speaker selector that does the impedence matching that is necessary so that your A/V receiver doesn't get detroyed with a load it simply can't handle. Don't get me wrong - it was the wrong product to use in the first place, but you can use it if you buy the right product.

So, if your volume controls do not handle impedence matching, then you MUST get something like this:
For only $19.25 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 6-Channel Speaker Selector | Speaker Selector

This will handle the impedence matching and ensure no lower than a 5 ohm load is presented to your A/V receiver. The A/V receiver is looking for no less than a 6ohm load, so even then you may not be able to turn it up very loud without it going into fault.

I think you get that a surround A/V receiver is not the proper product for distributed audio, but there are products which are designed for what you want to do, and I would think you could use your A/V receiver just fine with a impedence matching speaker selector in place.

Good luck!

 

[ImcLoud]

BMX, even if he has matching volume controls, how will he run 4 of them to 2 channels? unless he runs them to other channels on the avr but they wont get the correct signals if any during music? I didn't think there was a way to do it with out the selector box.... And I get around a 4 ohm load even with the selector box wired in, I am skeptical the low end Pioneer will be up to the task... But Im sure it depends on which speakers you have and how loud you plan on playing them...

 

[BMXTRIX]

BMX, even if he has matching volume controls, how will he run 4 of them to 2 channels? unless he runs them to other channels on the avr but they wont get the correct signals if any during music? I didn't think there was a way to do it with out the selector box.... And I get around a 4 ohm load even with the selector box wired in, I am skeptical the low end Pioneer will be up to the task... But Im sure it depends on which speakers you have and how loud you plan on playing them...

An A/V receiver has plenty of power to run multiple speakers as long as the load presented to it isn't so much that it kills it. So, if you have impedence matching volume controls of decent quality, then you can just tie the speaker wires together. Literally wirenut them together (cheap) or use something like this: SPW-8 Eight Zone Speaker Distribution Panel

There are cheaper/similar products out there, but really they amount to wire nutting the four wires together for each channel and putting them on positive/negative for both left and right.

I actually did this for a client and it worked suprisingly well.

Change that - it was terrible, but then I took the volume controls out of the wall and found out that it had been miswired on one volume control and once I fixed the wiring behind the volume control in the wall it worked fine. Same type of cheap A/V receiver and going out (in this case) to 3 pairs of speakers which were using impedence matching volume controls.

In a setup with up to 3 pairs of speakers, you can use a 7.1 receiver and hook up 1 pair to the fronts, 1 pair to the surrounds, and 1 pair to the surround back speakers, then set the A/V receiver to 7 channel stereo surround mode. It will take a 2.0 channel source and route the stereo equally to all the left/right channels and play back with equal power distribution across the channels. That's a really good option as well, but costs a bit more. If the A/V receiver is 4 ohm stable, then you could potentially drive 6 pairs of speakers without a problem from that same A/V receiver without need for impedence matching at all.

 

[ImcLoud]

An A/V receiver has plenty of power to run multiple speakers as long as the load presented to it isn't so much that it kills it. So, if you have impedence matching volume controls of decent quality, then you can just tie the speaker wires together. Literally wirenut them together (cheap) or use something like this: SPW-8 Eight Zone Speaker Distribution Panel

There are cheaper/similar products out there, but really they amount to wire nutting the four wires together for each channel and putting them on positive/negative for both left and right.

I actually did this for a client and it worked suprisingly well.

Change that - it was terrible, but then I took the volume controls out of the wall and found out that it had been miswired on one volume control and once I fixed the wiring behind the volume control in the wall it worked fine. Same type of cheap A/V receiver and going out (in this case) to 3 pairs of speakers which were using impedence matching volume controls.

In a setup with up to 3 pairs of speakers, you can use a 7.1 receiver and hook up 1 pair to the fronts, 1 pair to the surrounds, and 1 pair to the surround back speakers, then set the A/V receiver to 7 channel stereo surround mode. It will take a 2.0 channel source and route the stereo equally to all the left/right channels and play back with equal power distribution across the channels. That's a really good option as well, but costs a bit more. If the A/V receiver is 4 ohm stable, then you could potentially drive 6 pairs of speakers without a problem from that same A/V receiver without need for impedence matching at all.

WOW that sounds really hokey... but if it will work for a little while and he doesnt want to swap out the avr, what can it hurt, besides the avr

 

[BMXTRIX]

WOW that sounds really hokey... but if it will work for a little while and he doesnt want to swap out the avr, what can it hurt, besides the avr

As long as the receiver doesn't overheat and there is proper impedence matching in place, then it should last for years without problem. Sure, it's not as nice as a high power amp, or better yet, a multi-channel amplifier, but it will do suprisingly well for a long time.

He just must remember to keep that A/V receiver in a well ventilated area. No tucking it inside a cabinet!

They actually make some pretty nice looking in-wall speaker distribution wall plates that are designed to go with impedence matching volume controls...

Dayton Audio SDP10 In-Wall Speaker Splitter 10-Way 300-542

Something like that and you don't need to get a separate speaker selector and it cleans up the wiring a lot behind the amp, but it amounts to exactly what I said - wire nutting everything together.

 

[pk8183]

So after many months of putting this project off, I finally ordered the recommended receiver, Amp and speaker selector. I got it all hooked up tonight and turned it on and nothing!

I went through the manual of the Onkyo and it looks like that Zone 2 does not accept digital input sources, only analog. Oh well, guess the receiver can go back.

I am wondering if I could just go:Apple TV -- Optical Audio to Analog RCA converter --- Amp ---Speaker Selector --- Speakers.

Just curious.

 

[avengineer]

So after many months of putting this project off, I finally ordered the recommended receiver, Amp and speaker selector. I got it all hooked up tonight and turned it on and nothing!

I went through the manual of the Onkyo and it looks like that Zone 2 does not accept digital input sources, only analog. Oh well, guess the receiver can go back.

I am wondering if I could just go:Apple TV -- Optical Audio to Analog RCA converter --- Amp ---Speaker Selector --- Speakers.

Just curious.

Ah, you've discovered the "Nothing but analog to Zone 2/3" glitch. This happens with most mid-range receivers. Your solution would work, but since you're looking for a different AVR anyway, look one with built-in AirPlay capability, then download the manual and read it (sorry) and check that it can in fact route AirPlay to Zone 2/3. A sure-fire, and sometimes cheaper fix is to ignore the "glitch" and get an AirPort Express. That thing can output analog AirPlay, so any AVR can deal with it to multiple zones.

But you may have another issue. In installations with many speakers, it's often common to us a 70 Volt distribution system. What that means is each speaker has a transformer on it that changes it's 8 ohm impedance to a load that can be added to a 70 Volt/ Constant Voltage system. 70V volume controls are often switched transformers, and thus last much longer than low impedance versions, but the trick is the driving amplifier must also be set up to drive a 70V system. That means one of two things: The amplifier is already configured to have 70V output connections, or there has to be a large 8 ohm to 70 V transformer on its output to do the job.

If you connect a 70V system to your 8 ohm AVR, you will get some sound, but it will be very low volume.

To check and see what you have, you need to drop a speaker out of the ceiling and take a look for a transformer, or pull a volume control out of the wall and see what it is (post a picture, if you don't know what you're looking at).

The 70V system gets you around the problem of an extremely low impedance load on the AVR caused by tying so many speakers together. It's used in systems with 4 or more speakers, up to dozens, and is found a lot in commercial sound systems.

 

[allen_in_texas]

How do you drive in ceiling speakers? The first thing you'll need is a very small car.

(Sorry guys)