How can the audio industry possibly build a bad speaker?

[MrBoat]

The name Maytag still exists, wholly owned by Whirlpool. Both are made in the USA, but nothing like the old Maytag exists anymore.

There is a long but informative thread about washers in the Steam Vent from 3 years ago. Look especially for posts (like #40) by Midwesthonky who at one time was an engineer in the Maytag laundry products division.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/know-anything-about-washing-machines.84781/

I actually still own a Maytag washer from 1965. I used to repair those as well. Only thing that ever went wrong with it was a tub seal back in the late 80's sometime and is how I ended up with it. Still have a Maytag service repair kit that I use for a lot of other things. One of the smoothest, wobble free machines ever built.

 

[MrBoat]

Your sort of thinking is an absolute disaster and a pox on mankind.

It's not my fault I think like this. My topic started out with a question. The things I build are not cheap but then they are all hand built mostly from scratch except for the raw materials. Is it the best raw materials? It's the only raw materials of it's kind. There are two manufacturers of it in the country.

The other mass produced products I was recently involved in? I designed the process to build them, quoted a price for better product than the model they provided, fixed a major flaw, only because it would be found out we were manufacturing it. Built the first 300 with two other guys I trained. Once the powers that be decided we could make it cheaper, I made them take my name or involvement from it. I build other things now and only custom one-offs. I deal with all of the clients directly. I gave up a substantial pay raise and bonuses for a mere violation of personal ethics. Perhaps that's why I am somewhat critical.

 

[3db]

Speaker business is like any other - most companies are after quick and fat returns, rather than investing money and time in R&D.
There are product line exceptions to this very sweeping rule, such as AJ's designed Pioneer speakers and seems to be Sony core.
There are whole brands (Ascend, Salk, Philharmonic,Hsu,NHT, RBH) who don't make crappy speakers, even for their cheapest budget lines - but again these mentioned brands are in a minority.

Even before samsung, some of H&K products, especially at some budget lines are pure garbage.

Add PSB to that list of manufacturers that make excellent products along their entire line of speakers.

 

[Swerd]

I know the audio industry 'can' build a bad speaker, it just seems that it would almost have to be intentional and more as a marketing tactic…

Depending on your interests and needs, DIY speaker building might be just the thing for you. A lot depends on your own experience.

Making good sounding speakers is a mixture of skill, experience, personal preference, and some luck. It combines acoustic design, crossover design, plus woodwork and wood finishing.

There are quite a few manufacturers of the raw drivers (woofers, mid range, and tweeters). New models appear and older models disappear on a regular basis. I don't know anyone who tries to make his own drivers. We buy them from a few dealers who specialize in selling them to DIY builders. The most difficult part, for me, was learning which drivers were appropriate for which role. And, most important, how to properly measure sound while going through the driver selection/crossover design process. The measuring rigs required for this are somewhat expensive, but also require a lot of experience before you can use them well. I ultimately decided to follow well-established DIY speaker recipes instead of trying to design my own.

The retail store model of selling speakers is dying. In its place are newer Internet Direct dealers. Some of these ID makers sell excellent speakers at much lower prices than retail stores because they bypass the distributor and retail price markups. Some also can be depended upon to sell high quality designs that are not at all altered by marketing departments.

DIY takes you to greater savings if you already have woodworking tools and have the time to spend with your own labor. For me, this was almost entirel

We can suggest names of DIY designs as well as good ID speaker makers, if you are interested.

 

[highfigh]

I know the audio industry 'can' build a bad speaker, it just seems that it would almost have to be intentional and more as a marketing tactic. I used to rebuild electric motors. The difference between a great motor and a not so great one, was often pocket change in a singular sense, but millions of dollars production wise. But I could upgrade the components myself and turn it into a great motor for less than what they paid for it new.

At some point, the profit margins become ridiculous. With the technology available, say, a thousand dollars from a mass production op ought to be able to build superior products. I know there is more to it but is things I think about when I buy things, or, makes it more difficult for me to believe trends. And then you see an end of year, or "closeout" sale that exposes the more realistic value, provided the hype from the buyers doesn't keep it expensive.

Flashlights are a good example. Some flashlights cost thousands of dollars to those who will pay it. Often times, you could buy the same thing for a fraction of the cost that functions exactly the same.

If you think the closeout price reflects "the more realistic value", you're confusing that with cost or price- cost and price are qualitative, value is perceived.

You haven't considered several factors in pricing goods-

-Depending on the scale of manufacture, you'll need to deal with environmental regulation. Some materials used for wood finishing can't be used in all locations and if you really want to use something like nitrocellulose lacquer and some solvents, you need to spend a lot of money for equipment used to recover the evaporating volatiles.
-Testing components to ensure they meet spec and returning those that don't
-Design/test/redesign/re-test/re-design, etc- you can model an electro-mechanical device, but these aren't just making something turn, the drivers in a speaker system are interacting with the room and the final evaluation of the results of the conversion from electrical to mechanical energy isn't objective, it's subjective.
-Packaging. If you're not delivering them, you need to protect them.
-Cost of everything used for the design, including the computer(s), testing mic(s), cabling, software, the design/testing facility, your time as the designer/tester/builder of prototypes, utilities, tools/machinery, materials, parts, etc
-If you actually decide to build the product for sale, how many will you build? The cost of goods used is based on quantity and you'll be at the mercy of the driver manufactures because they can and do discontinue products. Are these drivers 'off the shelf, or custom-made? If the latter, get ready for costs that you aren't prepared for.
-Back stock, for warranty coverage. If you don't offer a warranty, you won't sell many and if you replace components with something that doesn't match WRT specs and performance, get ready for at least one lawsuit. A typical length of time for product support is five years- if you really want to make a go of this, you need to state the warranty and if people are going to take you seriously, the warranty needs to have some value for them. Or, you could just be a "Whatever happened to....?" brand after a couple of years.
-Legal council. For just about every aspect of your documentation and support.
-Who accounts for the cost of the time/materials and everything else that goes into this endeavor? They're not going to do it without being paid.
-Who will sell your products? If you will travel with them, include this cost.
-Insurance- if you think you can employ people and not have multiple types of insurance, guess again.
-FICA (includes Social Security). Employers pay half, the employees pay half, unless the government gives employees a reprieve, like what happened when the economy tanked. Did the employers get this reprieve? No, they still had to pay the whole 15.3% of wages for this.
-Your own administrative time

If you do everything yourself and don't recover the cost for everything and every minute of your time, you're talking about a hobby, not a sound business model.

You rebuild/improve motors- have you considered doing that on a large(r) scale?

Profit comes at each step in the speaker's journey from factory to customer- how long does a dealer have them in stock? The market can be very fickle- what sold well last month may not sell this month and keeping inventory costs money for a dealer OR manufacturer. Profit isn't a dirty word- do you save money from working? No difference.

 

[cel4145]

I can agree with this. This is probably something most of us actually know and just pay what it costs anyway regardless.

I think this is why some of the Internet direct vendors are such a good value. It's not just that they don't build in profit for middlemen, as people often suggest. But also they are not marketing heavy organizations, as well as not top heavy in corporate management. Instead we have small companies that are often run by speaker and subwoofer craftsmen who largely depend more on word of mouth for marketing.

 

[MrBoat]

Thank you for the replies. At the time I posted the topic, my thought on the subject was more unidimensional and more from an actual mechanical quality standpoint. Like drivers that last and those that don't. How so many small bookshelf systems in the sub 400 dollar range manage to sound decent. I remember a boarder I had here at my house had a shelf system she paid like 149 dollars for and I could not believe at the time that I could actually feel bass from it that was not distorted and from pretty tiny speakers. So surprised I was, I went and bought one just like it for the shop, where it's been playing every day since 2005. The speakers are still not blown. It has a 5 cd changer, tuner and multiple input capabilities. I think it's something like 200 watts RMS. At the time, my only experience with 100 watts or more, was a much larger system. The Pioneer boom box I had years before that of comparative size, when boom boxes became popular, never even came close to sounding that good. The Pioneer's speakers were also blown in about a year's time.

Still, I'm not seeing what separates a 1000 dollar pair of speakers from a capable large manufacturer with all the resources, to seeing speakers that cost 6-10, or even 20,000 a pair, outside of the exotic furniture aspect. But mostly from a performance aspect, It should be possible to get as good a sound, or perhaps even better in some instances, from a 1000 dollar pair of speakers. It seems that when following some reviews from notable experts on the matter, that they want to admit that this happens, yet can't be caught swearing by it. A company like Pioneer, Yamaha etc, should be able to pull this off by sheer will alone and be able to say, this is the best speakers in the world, and have it be at least as good as the best, whatever that is, or if there ever can be such a thing.

Didn't mean to not reply. Was out of town and I cannot type worth a damn on a smart phone.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Thank you for the replies. At the time I posted the topic, my thought on the subject was more unidimensional and more from an actual mechanical quality standpoint. Like drivers that last and those that don't. How so many small bookshelf systems in the sub 400 dollar range manage to sound decent. I remember a boarder I had here at my house had a shelf system she paid like 149 dollars for and I could not believe at the time that I could actually feel bass from it that was not distorted and from pretty tiny speakers. So surprised I was, I went and bought one just like it for the shop, where it's been playing every day since 2005. The speakers are still not blown. It has a 5 cd changer, tuner and multiple input capabilities. I think it's something like 200 watts RMS. At the time, my only experience with 100 watts or more, was a much larger system. The Pioneer boom box I had years before that of comparative size, when boom boxes became popular, never even came close to sounding that good. The Pioneer's speakers were also blown in about a year's time.

Still, I'm not seeing what separates a 1000 dollar pair of speakers from a capable large manufacturer with all the resources, to seeing speakers that cost 6-10, or even 20,000 a pair, outside of the exotic furniture aspect. But mostly from a performance aspect, It should be possible to get as good a sound, or perhaps even better in some instances, from a 1000 dollar pair of speakers. It seems that when following some reviews from notable experts on the matter, that they want to admit that this happens, yet can't be caught swearing by it. A company like Pioneer, Yamaha etc, should be able to pull this off by sheer will alone and be able to say, this is the best speakers in the world, and have it be at least as good as the best, whatever that is, or if there ever can be such a thing.

Didn't mean to not reply. Was out of town and I cannot type worth a damn on a smart phone.

Well, I'm with you on the smart phone. Not quite all the way with you on the rest. First, I don't think it's possible to offer a $1,000 speaker with really deep, clean bass (down into the 20's), and mate the woofers with a high quality midrange and tweeter. The cabinet and woofer cost will just be too great. After that, I guess it comes down to marketing. I agree that any mainstream company with electrical engineers on board should be able to produce an accurate speaker from 50 Hz on up. Whether that's what will sell is a different question. I don't think most companies are deliberately turning out inferior merchandise. I think they're just targeting qualities that they think a lot of consumers will want. Those probably aren't qualities you or I would want, but we are probably a minority, and maybe a tiny minority.
What sells may be high Spousal Approval Factor designs, high sensitivity designs, Slam-Bang-Wham midbass designs, Sparkling highs designs, and prestige names for the doctors and K-Street lawyers. Are these "bad" speakers? No--they pass a market test, and I'm not going to judge.

 

[MrBoat]

Well, I'm with you on the smart phone. Not quite all the way with you on the rest. First, I don't think it's possible to offer a $1,000 speaker with really deep, clean bass (down into the 20's), and mate the woofers with a high quality midrange and tweeter. The cabinet and woofer cost will just be too great. After that, I guess it comes down to marketing. I agree that any mainstream company with electrical engineers on board should be able to produce an accurate speaker from 50 Hz on up. Whether that's what will sell is a different question. I don't think most companies are deliberately turning out inferior merchandise. I think they're just targeting qualities that they think a lot of consumers will want. Those probably aren't qualities you or I would want, but we are probably a minority, and maybe a tiny minority.
What sells may be high Spousal Approval Factor designs, high sensitivity designs, Slam-Bang-Wham midbass designs, Sparkling highs designs, and prestige names for the doctors and K-Street lawyers. Are these "bad" speakers? No--they pass a market test, and I'm not going to judge.

Admittedly, I don't know a lot about this hi-fi stuff. Is why I ask the questions. I also understand that discussion forums have a tendency to be somewhat tumultuous, to the point where questions can come across as judgmental or as personal opinion. I really don't have enough experience to form any real opinions on this subject as of yet. It just seems so odd, with how far technology has come in the last 3 decades, the science of audio seems it should be pretty much settled. When you look at what makes up a speaker, it's old technology compared to just about everything else. Probably just my age showing.

 

[Diesel57]

+1

Bose has proven that you make more money when you invest in marketing speakers, not designing and manufacturing speakers of higher quality.

COULDN'T AGREE MORE...And might I say, if a company lacks in how to market a product they can learn from Bose on how to do that...

 

[cujobob]

I work in manufacturing. The sheer availability of affordable CNC processes throughout is remarkable. Not that this has much to do with the audio field, but as to mention how widely available technology is these days, with things like 3D printers being already available for private use, as an example. When you look at the basic physical construct of a speaker driver, the basic principals of which are actually pretty old, How can any company not hit a home run there, especially with all of the knowns of what actually makes a good speaker.

These days, one should be able to use the best wire for the coils, get high quality crossovers built in bulk overseas for pennies on the dollar to their spec, and the shaped plastics/composites should be a no brainer. Even the top name welding equipment I use now has electronics mostly made in China. I realize much of the cabinetry that houses some of these speakers that cost thousands of dollars has to be expensive but, once they get their particulars with the functional performance nailed down, are we really just buying expensive cabinets wrapped in exotic hardwoods? So, are they selling cabinets or speakers, when it comes right down to it? Everything else such as holes drilled, and maybe threaded for the fasteners is surely jigged where it doesn't take a cabinet craftsman to assemble it. I can teach high school kids to assemble what I make after I build the jigs. After that, I get paid for watching them and keeping an eye out with quality control.

Now I can see if some artisan is hand hammering the basket for the drivers and tuning them like one might a steel drum, but I don't think that's what's really going into these products. One could argue that we're paying for the R&D, but again, a lot of this can be figured out with a computer.

Now, I have been involved with bringing products to market. Even when we manage to keep our production and materials costs low, there are a butt load of parasites that need to get paid, especially if the patent process is involved. We can make a product that costs us 50 cents a unit to produce, and by the time the packaging and distributor (monopolies) networks get theirs, this 50 cent product now has to sell for 20 dollars in order for us to profit 50 cents. So what is it we are actually buying?

I grant that I may be way off base here, which is why I ask dumb questions. But I am not seeing anything in a pair of speakers that can cause them to be worth 10-20k dollars. 5 or 6k? I'm seeing expensive cabinetry, more than anything else that has not been discovered already.

Speaker design is certainly not a known or refined process. When I say this, I am referring to the sound quality, only. Many were viewing design as more of an art, than science, but thanks to many brilliant minds, we are now looking at things like polar response and measurements that actually matter. A big part of this is because there's a perception that audio quality is subjective and rather than using EQ or some other method to adjust a sound to a person's taste, one should buy a speaker with a certain 'sound.' You also have a large group of people moreso interested in fancy cabinets or those who believe that a fancy cabinet equals good sound. Another issue run into is volume of sales. Large companies don't have (or didn't have) the interest in pursuing the best sound quality because the average person isn't as picky as many forum-folk. For those who just casually purchase a pair of speakers, the appearance is more important than the sound quality (which they can't accurately measure in a Best Buy or loud shop anyways).


As far as building speakers and cost associated, I would say it's a volume issue for smaller companies. Larger companies cater to mass market demands, not those of the audiophile. JBL has been making nice designs but really that's only because their high end models for studios had R&D which trickled down to their budget models.

 

[MrBoat]

Speaker design is certainly not a known or refined process. When I say this, I am referring to the sound quality, only. Many were viewing design as more of an art, than science, but thanks to many brilliant minds, we are now looking at things like polar response and measurements that actually matter. A big part of this is because there's a perception that audio quality is subjective and rather than using EQ or some other method to adjust a sound to a person's taste, one should buy a speaker with a certain 'sound.' You also have a large group of people moreso interested in fancy cabinets or those who believe that a fancy cabinet equals good sound. Another issue run into is volume of sales. Large companies don't have (or didn't have) the interest in pursuing the best sound quality because the average person isn't as picky as many forum-folk. For those who just casually purchase a pair of speakers, the appearance is more important than the sound quality (which they can't accurately measure in a Best Buy or loud shop anyways).


As far as building speakers and cost associated, I would say it's a volume issue for smaller companies. Larger companies cater to mass market demands, not those of the audiophile. JBL has been making nice designs but really that's only because their high end models for studios had R&D which trickled down to their budget models.

I can agree with every post made on this thread. What has muddied my interpretations with audio manufacturing is coming from an era where there was a distinct separation between low, and high end audio components. There was very little middle range. These days, even some of the cheaper shelf systems from the box stores beat the larger stereo systems that used to be found in the working class homes 40-50 years ago. There was nothing you could do to make those home center systems sound good. Realistic, Panasonic, Emerson, RCA, just to name a few.

Some of these systems came with separate speaker cabinets that were 2-3 ft tall by a foot or so wide and although may provide some loudness, there was no quality to the sound and it got worse as you turned the volume up to anything that as considered loud. Now, even some of the 2.1 tiny sound systems that come with a desktop computer have a much better sound.

This is also something that is overlooked when condemning some of the rack systems of the 80's, or essentially that era entirely. To those of us who had very little access to audiophile equipment growing up, these systems were a godsend. Finally, we could at least 'feel' the music or even hear a guitar pick hitting, or calloused fingers sliding across the windings over the strings.

Just considering the strides made from the most common home center offerings of the 70's to the 80's with mainstream listening. It just seems that being we have since travelled through a pretty remarkable technological boom, where we saw computer technology and automated production grow exponentially, nearly to the point of consuming itself, that it would be difficult to build something substandard.

I get it. It's marketing. Much of which has to rely on squeezing the most out of an economy that is seemingly more recycled than actually grown, or how many ways they can reuse what's left of the old money.

 

[panteragstk]

When I sold A/V years ago (admittedly not high end speakers, but still good stuff) and my friends that worked at the high end shops would talk about audio quite a lot. One of the things that all of us seemed to deal with was that it was pretty easy to sell someone a $5000 TV, but this same person would balk at a $500 receiver and $500 pair of speakers. They usually wanted to know "why they were so expensive".

At the same time the high end friends could sell a $50000 audio system, but not the cheaper stuff. Very odd, but consistent behavior from our customers. It seemed that nobody wanted a "modest" audio setup. It was either the cheap stuff or very high end.

The high end guys sold more 800 series B&W than the 600 series. Very odd.

My customers usually couldn't get a decent sound system due to WAF (as mentioned above). Big speakers are "ugly" when it comes to decor apparently. Everyone wanted BOSE size, but not the price. So I was able to sell quite a lot of HTIB from Onkyo and Denon. I pretty much told them the Sony/Samsung/LG stuff was crap (not that HTIB in general aren't crap).

Almost all of the customers wanted speakers for their theater, none really wanted a 2 channel system. I honestly can't remember ever selling someone a decent 2 ch speaker system.

What I'm getting at is most consumers don't really care about high quality sound so speaker companies are allowed to give them low quality speakers because they just don't seem to care. Some do, but they are not the majority.

 

[MrBoat]

When I sold A/V years ago (admittedly not high end speakers, but still good stuff) and my friends that worked at the high end shops would talk about audio quite a lot. One of the things that all of us seemed to deal with was that it was pretty easy to sell someone a $5000 TV, but this same person would balk at a $500 receiver and $500 pair of speakers. They usually wanted to know "why they were so expensive".

At the same time the high end friends could sell a $50000 audio system, but not the cheaper stuff. Very odd, but consistent behavior from our customers. It seemed that nobody wanted a "modest" audio setup. It was either the cheap stuff or very high end.

The high end guys sold more 800 series B&W than the 600 series. Very odd.

My customers usually couldn't get a decent sound system due to WAF (as mentioned above). Big speakers are "ugly" when it comes to decor apparently. Everyone wanted BOSE size, but not the price. So I was able to sell quite a lot of HTIB from Onkyo and Denon. I pretty much told them the Sony/Samsung/LG stuff was crap (not that HTIB in general aren't crap).

Almost all of the customers wanted speakers for their theater, none really wanted a 2 channel system. I honestly can't remember ever selling someone a decent 2 ch speaker system.

What I'm getting at is most consumers don't really care about high quality sound so speaker companies are allowed to give them low quality speakers because they just don't seem to care. Some do, but they are not the majority.

Those are good points from someone in the business. And what I am saying is also not the say all. It's not just audio equipment and I'm not even knocking the overpriced things. I also realize how many hands are in the marketing and distribution of just about anything marketable these days.

In spite of my rather loose (and likely wrong) perception of this industry, I do appreciate that there are some affordable options for good audio. It would just be nice when shopping for a pair of speakers, that I didn't have to wade through so much reviewer hype. I do notice this forum has some believable participants. Most of what has been said to me here is actually sensible.

 

[lovinthehd]

It would just be nice when shopping for a pair of speakers, that I didn't have to wade through so much reviewer hype.

Why do you feel you need to read such reviews?

 

[MrBoat]

Why do you feel you need to read such reviews?

Well, I don't much anymore after finding this forum but it was the first available information when I started researching equipment. I don't know. It's about the only other measure if you can't actually try everything out.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm currently reading this article.
http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/bookshelf-vs-tower-speakers

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, I don't much anymore after finding this forum but it was the first available information when I started researching equipment. I don't know. It's about the only other measure if you can't actually try everything out.

My experience too for the most part, altho I had given up on many "professional" reviews in magazines for a variety of products/hobbies before that, although at one point I did subscribe to a couple audio magazines way back when. Electronics reviews are way more ridiculous than speaker reviews in any case; you might actually pick up some sound quality clues for speakers whereas I doubt it with most electronics.

This forum and a few others pointed me towards Ascend a while back and that worked out great for me. I would much rather conduct listening tests in my own setups these days so internet works quite well....and most of the reviews ignore that market's offerings....because they're not playing the advertising games for the most part. I'd look at Salk and Philharmonic and a few others these days but now diy speakers have more appeal.

 

[MrBoat]

My experience too for the most part, altho I had given up on many "professional" reviews in magazines for a variety of products/hobbies before that, although at one point I did subscribe to a couple audio magazines way back when. Electronics reviews are way more ridiculous than speaker reviews in any case; you might actually pick up some sound quality clues for speakers whereas I doubt it with most electronics.

This forum and a few others pointed me towards Ascend a while back and that worked out great for me. I would much rather conduct listening tests in my own setups these days so internet works quite well....and most of the reviews ignore that market's offerings....because they're not playing the advertising games for the most part. I'd look at Salk and Philharmonic and a few others these days but now diy speakers have more appeal.

I agree about reviews with other hobbies and because of that, I should and probably did know better but was just being lazy. Mostly because it's very expensive to prove them right or wrong so I at least try to look for an average, or a believable consensus across the board.

I think DIY would be the quickest place to learn at my economic platform. At least the numbers seem to jive with common knowledge and I can worry about if I want to charge myself for magic wires and special speaker smoke.