How can the audio industry possibly build a bad speaker?

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MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I work in manufacturing. The sheer availability of affordable CNC processes throughout is remarkable. Not that this has much to do with the audio field, but as to mention how widely available technology is these days, with things like 3D printers being already available for private use, as an example. When you look at the basic physical construct of a speaker driver, the basic principals of which are actually pretty old, How can any company not hit a home run there, especially with all of the knowns of what actually makes a good speaker.

These days, one should be able to use the best wire for the coils, get high quality crossovers built in bulk overseas for pennies on the dollar to their spec, and the shaped plastics/composites should be a no brainer. Even the top name welding equipment I use now has electronics mostly made in China. I realize much of the cabinetry that houses some of these speakers that cost thousands of dollars has to be expensive but, once they get their particulars with the functional performance nailed down, are we really just buying expensive cabinets wrapped in exotic hardwoods? So, are they selling cabinets or speakers, when it comes right down to it? Everything else such as holes drilled, and maybe threaded for the fasteners is surely jigged where it doesn't take a cabinet craftsman to assemble it. I can teach high school kids to assemble what I make after I build the jigs. After that, I get paid for watching them and keeping an eye out with quality control.

Now I can see if some artisan is hand hammering the basket for the drivers and tuning them like one might a steel drum, but I don't think that's what's really going into these products. One could argue that we're paying for the R&D, but again, a lot of this can be figured out with a computer.

Now, I have been involved with bringing products to market. Even when we manage to keep our production and materials costs low, there are a butt load of parasites that need to get paid, especially if the patent process is involved. We can make a product that costs us 50 cents a unit to produce, and by the time the packaging and distributor (monopolies) networks get theirs, this 50 cent product now has to sell for 20 dollars in order for us to profit 50 cents. So what is it we are actually buying?

I grant that I may be way off base here, which is why I ask dumb questions. But I am not seeing anything in a pair of speakers that can cause them to be worth 10-20k dollars. 5 or 6k? I'm seeing expensive cabinetry, more than anything else that has not been discovered already.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
You do bring up some good points. However, the cabinetry on high end speakers can often be very expensive. For cabinets, it can very well be an artisan spending many hours assembling the cabinet and applying a nice finish. A lot of the parts that can be used in high end speakers are not produced in massive runs by the tens of thousands, and can sometimes be quite expensive. As for R&D, it is not as simple as dumping some parameters into a computer and having it return some design. The modeling will start in a computer, but trials and tests of prototypes have to be done, because the modeling is never perfect. Then the speakers have to be sold to dealers, and the dealers have to make money to keep their lights on, and that is a lot of overhead. I do think some speakers are over-priced, but there are some expensive speakers that really are fairly priced.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The reason everyone doesn't make a great speaker is the single most important thing: the best drivers and all that know-how out there don't mean much if you can't bring that all together in a way that works. The simple skill of listening and experience of how to make the tweaks needed to achieve great sound aren't as easy to come by as the parts to build a speaker. As with any product, plans and ideas alone don't make a hit or a good product. Second is - everyone's preference is different, so making one speaker that appeals to everyone isn't exactly possible.

Big companies are interested in making a profit, not great sound. They want good enough that will still make them money.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Speaker business is like any other - most companies are after quick and fat returns, rather than investing money and time in R&D.
There are product line exceptions to this very sweeping rule, such as AJ's designed Pioneer speakers and seems to be Sony core.
There are whole brands (Ascend, Salk, Philharmonic,Hsu,NHT, RBH) who don't make crappy speakers, even for their cheapest budget lines - but again these mentioned brands are in a minority.

Even before samsung, some of H&K products, especially at some budget lines are pure garbage.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
I have read stories about manufactures in China who sub-contract parts for speaker drivers. One US company specified part numbers for each piece. The sub-contractor made the parts differently but put the correct part number on them.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
The nit-picking audiophile is in the minority.

It is all about marketing, and getting inside the mind of the consumer.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I work in manufacturing. The sheer availability of affordable CNC processes throughout is remarkable. Not that this has much to do with the audio field, but as to mention how widely available technology is these days, with things like 3D printers being already available for private use, as an example. When you look at the basic physical construct of a speaker driver, the basic principals of which are actually pretty old, How can any company not hit a home run there, especially with all of the knowns of what actually makes a good speaker.

These days, one should be able to use the best wire for the coils, get high quality crossovers built in bulk overseas for pennies on the dollar to their spec, and the shaped plastics/composites should be a no brainer.
One thing the industry is really expert at is building bad speakers. They abound. Actually there are still a lot of unknowns in speaker building. The apparent simplicity of a speaker is highly deceiving. The conversion is electrical into sound energy is the most problematic part of the audio chain. The conversion of sound to electrical energy at the head of the chain runs it a close second.

When you get Asia involved you have the perfect storm. As for crossovers built for pennies on the dollar, we are awash in those type of consumer products, that are not even worth the cost of transport.

Cheap and poorly manufactured goods are the curse of the modern world. Just ask those of us who still have made in the USA Maytag washing machines. We live in fear of them eventually wearing out, and then have to worry about exploding washing machine drums, because the foreign designers can't even do high school physics.

Your sort of thinking is an absolute disaster and a pox on mankind.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Cheap and poorly manufactured goods are the curse of the modern world. Just ask those of us who still have made in the USA Maytag washing machines. We live in fear of them eventually wearing out, and then have to worry about exploding washing machine drums, because the foreign designers can't even do high school physics.
Last I looked, which was last year, Maytag and Whirlpool washers are still made in the USA.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Last I looked, which was last year, Maytag and Whirlpool washers are still made in the USA.
The name Maytag still exists, wholly owned by Whirlpool. Both are made in the USA, but nothing like the old Maytag exists anymore.

There is a long but informative thread about washers in the Steam Vent from 3 years ago. Look especially for posts (like #40) by Midwesthonky who at one time was an engineer in the Maytag laundry products division.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/know-anything-about-washing-machines.84781/
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@MrBoat – If you want to read a good example of how the audio industry can build a bad speaker, read the long thread on the Fluance Signature Series speaker. So you can skip ahead to page 14, that 3-way floor standing speaker was introduced by Fluance as their top of the line model, selling at $1400 (if I recall correctly) a pair.

Skip ahead to page 14 and beyond of that thread, and pay close attention to posts by Dennis Murphy. He provided detailed info on how decent drivers were poorly integrated by badly designed crossovers.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/fluance-signature-series-speakers-preview.97371/page-14
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
@MrBoat – If you want to read a good example of how the audio industry can build a bad speaker, read the long thread on the Fluance Signature Series speaker. So you can skip ahead to page 14, that 3-way floor standing speaker was introduced by Fluance as their top of the line model, selling at $1400 (if I recall correctly) a pair.

Skip ahead to page 14 and beyond of that thread, and pay close attention to posts by Dennis Murphy. He provided detailed info on how decent drivers were poorly integrated by badly designed crossovers.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/fluance-signature-series-speakers-preview.97371/page-14
The Fluance Signature towers sell for 700 a pair, looks like you thought the price was per speaker. Some of those problems have been addressed in the redesign, btw.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The Fluance Signature towers sell for 700 a pair, looks like you thought the price was per speaker.
Missed it by a factor of two!
Some of those problems have been addressed in the redesign, btw.
I can only hope they addressed those problems with the redesign. Wait until a reliable 3rd party hears & measures them. After version 1, I no longer had confidence in that company.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Mr Boat you sound like a good candidate for some diy projects. You might start looking around diysoundgroup.com if you haven't already.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The name Maytag still exists, wholly owned by Whirlpool. Both are made in the USA, but nothing like the old Maytag exists anymore.

There is a long but informative thread about washers in the Steam Vent from 3 years ago. Look especially for posts (like #40) by Midwesthonky who at one time was an engineer in the Maytag laundry products division.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/know-anything-about-washing-machines.84781/
I know all of this. I was just responding to TLSGuy's comment. There is a lot more to product quality than where something is made.
 
cel4145

cel4145

Audioholic
The nit-picking audiophile is in the minority.

It is all about marketing, and getting inside the mind of the consumer.
+1

Bose has proven that you make more money when you invest in marketing speakers, not designing and manufacturing speakers of higher quality.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
The reason everyone doesn't make a great speaker is the single most important thing: the best drivers and all that know-how out there don't mean much if you can't bring that all together in a way that works. The simple skill of listening and experience of how to make the tweaks needed to achieve great sound aren't as easy to come by as the parts to build a speaker. As with any product, plans and ideas alone don't make a hit or a good product. Second is - everyone's preference is different, so making one speaker that appeals to everyone isn't exactly possible.

Big companies are interested in making a profit, not great sound. They want good enough that will still make them money.
That's pretty much where I am coming from. But a lot of cheaper products are borderline great sound for their price point. I suspect the amount of product line a company must carry has a lot to do with it, and to not kill the niche market of people who will spend large sums just for the sake of exclusivity.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
@MrBoat – If you want to read a good example of how the audio industry can build a bad speaker, read the long thread on the Fluance Signature Series speaker. So you can skip ahead to page 14, that 3-way floor standing speaker was introduced by Fluance as their top of the line model, selling at $1400 (if I recall correctly) a pair.

Skip ahead to page 14 and beyond of that thread, and pay close attention to posts by Dennis Murphy. He provided detailed info on how decent drivers were poorly integrated by badly designed crossovers.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/fluance-signature-series-speakers-preview.97371/page-14
I know the audio industry 'can' build a bad speaker, it just seems that it would almost have to be intentional and more as a marketing tactic. I used to rebuild electric motors. The difference between a great motor and a not so great one, was often pocket change in a singular sense, but millions of dollars production wise. But I could upgrade the components myself and turn it into a great motor for less than what they paid for it new.

At some point, the profit margins become ridiculous. With the technology available, say, a thousand dollars from a mass production op ought to be able to build superior products. I know there is more to it but is things I think about when I buy things, or, makes it more difficult for me to believe trends. And then you see an end of year, or "closeout" sale that exposes the more realistic value, provided the hype from the buyers doesn't keep it expensive.

Flashlights are a good example. Some flashlights cost thousands of dollars to those who will pay it. Often times, you could buy the same thing for a fraction of the cost that functions exactly the same.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Mr Boat you sound like a good candidate for some diy projects. You might start looking around diysoundgroup.com if you haven't already.
I've thought about it. I've rebuilt drivers and upgraded them to a point that according to the original criticisms, should not have been possible. I kind of understand how some of the more 'hands-on' outfits deserve a better, or perhaps extraordinary price. But, according to some of the hype and engineering logic, it should not be possible for someone like me to do this but, the information is out there. My boss is an engineer for Lockheed. He looked at the circuit board for my HK speakers and knew exactly what did what and not only repaired it, but added redundancy to where it would be very difficult for it to fail for the rest of my life. The weak link now? The lifespan of the foam that the surrounds are made of.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
+1

Bose has proven that you make more money when you invest in marketing speakers, not designing and manufacturing speakers of higher quality.
I can agree with this. This is probably something most of us actually know and just pay what it costs anyway regardless.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
There's some good posts here. I'm not out to prove the industry wrong or condemn it, really. Just trying to understand fair values. There's a lot to absorb. I do appreciate a lot of what has been accomplished with this industry.
 
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