Head to Head Review: Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE vs Wharfedale Diamond 10.1

2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
The finish on my csb1 was perfect, I can not complain... As far as the price decrease I wouldnt pay $900 for them, but at $400 they are a solid buy... I normally stay away from gloss black but wanted something different and hard to keep clean, so I went gloss black with glass stands... My house keeper has commented that that stereo is hard to dust, lol...
Yours were perfect even under a point source light? Pics or it never happened ;)
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
Well, under a small LED flashlight, it sort of looks like that but not as bad. Shorter, lighter streaks going around in a circle like that.
My Carnegie towers do not have these swirls, I tried to take a picture but it just shows pure black.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Rarely do I see perfect gloss on a gloss black speaker, or cars for that matter. I've owned plenty of black cars and no matter how well I polished them, the spiderwebbing comes back after a while; fact of life, name of the game. The key to me is, it doesn't affect the sound quality :)
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
My CSB's look flawless. (I have excellent near-field eyesight. I can see each individual pixel on a computer screen up close.) No problems there.

I really enjoy how they sound - except I listen almost exclusively to old music - pre-1990 - so while excellent recordings sound great, not great ones' high frequencies are harsh for me when I crank them up and bad recordings...well, they have to be listened to at a low level.

I used to be able to crank up all my music on the Pioneer SP 22's because their highs were a bit recessed and rolled off. Not so with the Carnegies - for example, Chicago's first album.
Your post raises an interesting point. After measuring dozens of SP 22's, I can say that they are definitely not rolled off, at least not in the high treble. They are actually elevated above 9 kHz or so, with a strong peak around 15 kHz. But that won't come across as irritatingly hot on older recordings. That region is composed of very high overtones, and most of our ears have degraded hearing up there. The 22's are more laid back much further down--in the 3-4 kHz region, where the ear is most sensitive. I suspect that's what you're picking up on when comparing the 22's with some other speakers.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I wouldn't have said the 22s roll off either, I feel they are just more forgiving that something like the CSB-1. I had them in the same setup as my CSB-1s as well.
 
charmerci

charmerci

Audioholic
Your post raises an interesting point. After measuring dozens of SP 22's, I can say that they are definitely not rolled off, at least not in the high treble. They are actually elevated above 9 kHz or so, with a strong peak around 15 kHz. But that won't come across as irritatingly hot on older recordings. That region is composed of very high overtones, and most of our ears have degraded hearing up there. The 22's are more laid back much further down--in the 3-4 kHz region, where the ear is most sensitive. I suspect that's what you're picking up on when comparing the 22's with some other speakers.
Well, yes I stand somewhat corrected - I didn't say how high the highs were rolled off! :rolleyes: :D
 
2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
I did some messing around with an uncalibrated mic from my AVR and REW just to get familiar and proficient with the program.

This is what I started with, nasty....




And this is the final result after many hours and 27 eq filters(both auto, and manual). Note, I have a crappy subwoofer right now since this is just my computer setup.




I tried messing around with REW the other day, using my AVRs fixed Q 9 band EQ but they results were pretty terrible. Luckily someone made a handy script that works with REW and you can apply filtering through windows, unlimited bands and variable filters/Q. As I mentioned I will probably be taking several speakers outdoors(RC-10s, CSB-1s, Aperion T6's, maybe some others)when I get my calibrated mic in to do some measurements.
 
2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
Update 3/11/14

I went ahead and took the CSB-1s and RC-10s outdoors today to do some free field measurements. It didnt really turn out as expected. For some reason there was a nasty dip at 200hz with all speakers tested, there was also another dip, although not quite as significant at 500hz. I cant figure out why those dips occurred. So I decided to forgo posting any graphs. However, I did get agreeable, and what I believe to be accurate data from 20hz to 100hz and from 1khz-20khz. I will summarize the results.


Measurements were done with a UMIK-1 calibrated microphone and taken with REW, 1/3 octave smoothing. The microphone was about 2m away from the speakers with the microphone aimed between the tweeter and midrange. I tried to get as far away from any reflective objects as possible, I placed the speakers on the grass(on stands) to avoid any floor bounce. I took 2 measurements, and averaged them. Surprisingly even with a highish noise floor(I did the sweeps at high volume to compensate) the difference between the sweeps was pretty much non existent. They were within tenths of a dB.


The RC-10s are very flat throughout the midrange, they measured to within +/-1.5dB from 1khz to 20khz. The CSB-1s aren't too bad, they deviate by +/-2.5dB throughout the same passband. The CSB-1s play a few hz lower. The CSB-1s seemed like they were on the verge of bottoming out during the sweeps(I heard some mechanical noise, but I didn't get any pop or smack).
Being able to hear things and then test them was a real treat. I wish I could go back in time and measure all of the speakers I auditioned. When I upgrade in the future I may try out something with a ribbon tweeter, I haven't had the opportunity to do any critical listening with ribbon tweeter speakers.

Something I think is important to note is that the CSB-1s gave me hell when trying to get them to where I really wanted them to be. I took about 5 days of moving things around inch by inch while spending about 40 hours total in REW doing sweeps and real time analysis. Granted, most of that was me learning how to do all of that stuff in REW. I feel like the upper midrange/treble of the RC-10s, while not as detailed, are easier to get good results with. That might stem from the fact that the RC-10s have a flatter midrange/treble. Also its important to note that I am not running the CSB-1s flat, like all of my speakers I prefer to apply a house curve(+1.8dB/octave starting at 200hz and -1.4dB/octave starting at 2,000hz). While I was messing around with the house curve on the CSB-1s I thought about the CBM-170's. I feel like I might have been able to get them where I wanted using all this new tech I have acquired. They were really missing that lower midrange and I feel like a house curve might be all they needed. Flat frequency responses tend to not sound so good to most people(see Harmon, B&K study etc), any that might have been the issue. They were too flat, something that I could easily fix now that I couldn't do then. Alas, I will never know.

So after 2 months, 5 speakers and about 40 hours buried in software - I am content.



Note: After analyzing the CSB-1s with all my new gadgets I decided to go ahead and put them on stands behind the desk as some previously suggested before. In the end it was not so much that they measured better from there; the difference was slight, I did it more for the vast improvement in sound-stage.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
I wouldn't think putting the speakers on stands behind the monitor would help much.

You should try and mitigate the reflections off of the desk, and move the speakers' front baffles in front of the monitor. That would give you the best sound, but I realize in a desktop setup, that is easier said than done.
 
2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
I wouldn't think putting the speakers on stands behind the monitor would help much.

You should try and mitigate the reflections off of the desk, and move the speakers' front baffles in front of the monitor. That would give you the best sound, but I realize in a desktop setup, that is easier said than done.
I ran real time analysis, room sim and did many sweeps. I tried just about everything I could think of over the past 5 days and they ended up there because its what gave me the best results.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
I ran real time analysis, room sim and did many sweeps. I tried just about everything I could think of over the past 5 days and they ended up there because its what gave me the best results.
It would be interesting to see what you think of the sound of the speakers in nearfield without a desk or monitor in the placement equation.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Flat frequency responses tend to not sound so good to most people(see Harmon, B&K study etc), any that might have been the issue.
(I posted this over at AVS)
I just read this.

I know for the Harman paper/study, that is incorrect....people tend to LIKE a flat FR and power response. This Harman paper is all traceable back to Floyd Toole's work at Canada's NRC, and his work with Sean Olive on the Harman paper.

I don't know anything about the B&K study.
 
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2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
(I posted this over at AVS)
I just read this.

I know for the Harman paper/study, that is incorrect....people tend to LIKE a flat FR and power response. This Harman paper is all traceable back to Floyd Toole's work at Canada's NRC, and his work with Sean Olive on the Harman paper.

I don't know anything about the B&K study.
Im not quite sure what your talking about. The Harmon study clearly states at the end "Flat in-room response is not the optimal target response". Source: https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0B97zTRsdcJTfY2U4ODhiZmUtNDEyNC00ZDcyLWEzZTAtMGJiODQ1ZTUxMGQ4&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v

This is the B&K curve, I lost the link to the study. http://i47.tinypic.com/rrt8yd.jpg
 
2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
It would be interesting to see what you think of the sound of the speakers in nearfield without a desk or monitor in the placement equation.
At one point I removed the monitor and remeasured, it didn't make a significant difference. I listened to all the speakers evaluated in 2 different rooms at different distances.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Im not quite sure what your talking about. The Harmon study clearly states at the end "Flat in-room response is not the optimal target response". Source: https://docs.google.com/viewer?srcid=0B97zTRsdcJTfY2U4ODhiZmUtNDEyNC00ZDcyLWEzZTAtMGJiODQ1ZTUxMGQ4&pid=explorer&efh=false&a=v

This is the B&K curve, I lost the link to the study. http://i47.tinypic.com/rrt8yd.jpg
I just replied to you over at AVS.

OK...you are referring to the room correction study, not the speaker study. The study that I am referring to showed that speakers with flat anechoic response was preferred by listeners in room, but that does not translate to flat in room response/.

Does that correlate to your house curve?
 
2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
I just replied to you over at AVS.

OK...you are referring to the room correction study, not the speaker study. The study that I am referring to showed that speakers with flat anechoic response was preferred by listeners in room, but that does not translate to flat in room response/.

Does that correlate to your house curve?

Yes. You can take a speaker that measures perfectly in every way but then throw it in a poor room with poor placement and make it measure terrible. Ultimately its the in room response that will dictate how a speaker sounds, not the speakers anechoic measurements. While it is a study about different room correction systems, the ultimate thing to take away from it is that people did not like a flat in room response. In fact a flat measured response does not sound flat to most of us. We have to apply a house curve in order to achieve a perceived flat response. With that said opinions differ and everyones ears are shaped differently hence collecting sound slightly different and each of our brains have their own preferences. Also, I'm not sure I believe in the one size fits all house curve. I find i have to make minor adjustments from room to room and more importantly depending on the volume level i will be listening to most. At quieter listening levels I find less high frequency attenuation is required and even more bass is needed, the opposite is true at high volumes. It all has to do with the equal loudness curve http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Lindos1.svg/704px-Lindos1.svg.png
 
2

2ndammendment

Junior Audioholic
I have some unfortunate news..... I was doing some sweeps in rew(nothing too crazy, meter said about 85db) and I became puzzled as to why my graphs started falling on their face after 2khz. Strange, I thought. Maybe there is something up with my mic..... Checked, same thing. Then I though to myself......2khz.....hmmm....that just happens to be around the crossover frequency of the CSB1's.....oh no. Sure enough, one of the tweeters has crapped out. I've never broken any kind of driver before, even doing some marginally dumb stuff. For example -back when I was much younger and not so wise I would crank my AVR's volume up to +5(its max) when I went outside to wash the car so I could hear some music outside(garage was converted to a home theater). I would do this for over a hour sometimes. The speakers I was running at the time were some Aperion Intimus T6's, somehow even with this abuse they never crapped out and still work flawlessly to this day. I'm thinking the tweeter in this CSB-1 may be a lemon, I'm not sure. I did have to pull out metal debris that was caught up in the front part of the tweeter when it arrived. :confused:

Perhaps its time to find out how Carnegie's customer service is...
 
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