Full Range Drivers

[MrBoat]

Again, it's an intriguing curiosity. It never occurred to me that a lot of desktop 2.1 systems employ a single, full range driver for the mids and highs and manage to sound quite good for their size in at least, near field applications. The other part of the intrigue comes from the understanding that we reside primarily in the midrange, audibly speaking. This area of our audible range is emphasized upon, even with our multi-way speakers. I've always tuned the midrange capabilities the most in all of the speakers I have owned and has been what has always given me the most satisfaction with actual listening experience.

Just last night, I was listening to a smooth vocal cut on a song and the woman had this almost smoky, sultry voice and the two way Tempests that I have really delivered it well, to where I listened to the song multiple times, back-to-back. In the mean time, the higher range instrumentals were giving way to her singing which you would expect with a song that focuses more on the vocals. For this performance (there has been others, of course) it was all about the midrange, where you get the idea that any decent tweeter or woofer would have done fine with the upper and lower ranges because their duty was intentionally reduced. In other words, it was all about the vocals and the other mid-range blends.

In my travels researching speaker kits to build, I have come across full range drivers from Seas, Fostex, Markaudio etc but never really considered them or the designs that included them. Many of these use no crossover and that also intrigues me after seeing mention of the less filtering with multi-way designs, the better, if you can manage it. Then there's the types of systems such as the folded horn, the bass/double bass reflex types, lower power requirements etc. I imagine this type of speaker probably has a pretty large following but being that there is only one driver, and not really a lot to talk about or show, probably not a real hit with the marketing gurus needing a lot more to talk about in which to sell it.

Somehow, this seems to be my next logical step in my speaker building ventures. Not out of need, but just to experiment with and for liking to build things that do something different. I know the modern take on it is probably more of a "yeah, but why?" take, with all of the possibilities of multi-way offerings being what they are but, there is a simplicity here that just seems it should be part of this adventure or the possibility of discovering something I really like without acquiring a lot more hardware.

 

[everettT]

Mark Audio make nice drivers. Madisound carries them. Really well built and designed.

 

[everettT]

If you can get someone to do a true TL worksheet for you, that would be they way I'd go , just depends on driver selection

 

[TheWarrior]

If you can get someone to do a true TL worksheet for you, that would be they way I'd go , just depends on driver selection

I'll take that challenge! What driver?

 

[everettT]

I'll take that challenge! What driver?

I wasn't referring to a specific one. The mark audio units and Jordan's would be the ones I'd consider. I don't have access to the math sheets from Martin J. King so I couldn't begin to design a TL cabinet. There a few plans out there, just have seen the ones on mark audios website.

 

[MrBoat]

I'll take that challenge! What driver?

I have to do some more research yet with regard to goals or expectations. Also, it should be said that I am no purist and would not be adverse to using a separate subwoofer in a 2.1 setup.

I just started reading about this late last night and did see mention of TL. On the Madisound site, I also saw some inclusions of manufacturer suggested enclosures as well with some of the drivers but really didn't get that far.

Anyhow, it made me think to revisit the idea when I woke up this morning. I'd be open to hear of others experiences with this direction as well. I think I saw mention of it in another thread upstairs with someone asking about some horn speakers they acquired but that's not what started it. Coincidentally, I do remember people when I was much younger, hacking speakers out of console systems and such, using the drivers to build speakers with, and I don't recall there being any separate tweeters etc. involved.

 

[MrBoat]

This driver looks interesting for a starting point.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm so glad you are interested in full rangers. I have written on these forums at length about full range speakers.

You are absolutely correct that the mid range of a speaker must be perfect. Unfortunately t is so often necessary to have a crossover in the speech discrimination band. Crossovers introduce time shifts and disconnect fundamental tones from their harmonics in time.

The problem is that no one has achieved pistonic motion throughout the frequency range, and so cone break up has to be accepted and designed into the driver. So roughness in the upper frequencies and poor off axis response is all too common.

All designers should be full rangers at heart.

I have a long association with the Jordan Watts module. I still think overall this unit still has the smoothest response of all the full rangers. The Mark Audio drivers are its direct descendants. In may respects improved, but a little hot in the top end.

I have a fully worked up a design for two of these Mark Audio drivers in a TL with this tweeter. Although strictly speaking not a full ranger, to all intense and purposes it is. It is an MTM design with the break up dealt with and and the phase shift kept to no more than 90 degrees, so it is a phase coherent speaker. It models ruler flat, and there are only four small components in the crossover.

I really don't have the energy to build a pair of these right now. If you are interested I will make the plans available to you.

F3 is 40 Hz, and since this is a true TL an not mass loaded it is only down 15 db at 20 Hz, and only 8 db down at 30 Hz. Power handling is 100 watts and sensitivity would be 94 db 2.83 volts 1 meter.

This would be a highly cost effective speaker, and likely one of the very best around. If you would consider building a pair of these I would be very grateful.

If you are interested I will send you full details.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm so glad you are interested in full rangers. I have written on these forums at length about full range speakers.

You are absolutely correct that the mid range of a speaker must be perfect. Unfortunately t is so often necessary to have a crossover in the speech discrimination band. Crossovers introduce time shifts and disconnect fundamental tones from their harmonics in time.

The problem is that no one has achieved pistonic motion throughout the frequency range, and so cone break up has to be accepted and designed into the driver. So roughness in the upper frequencies and poor off axis response is all too common.

All designers should be full rangers at heart.

I have a long association with the Jordan Watts module. I still think overall this unit still has the smoothest response of all the full rangers. The Mark Audio drivers are its direct descendants. In may respects improved, but a little hot in the top end.

I have a fully worked up a design for two of these Mark Audio drivers in a TL with this tweeter. Although strictly speaking not a full ranger, to all intense and purposes it is. It is an MTM design with the break up dealt with and and the phase shift kept to no more than 90 degrees, so it is a phase coherent speaker. It models ruler flat, and there are only four small components in the crossover.

I really don't have the energy to build a pair of these right now. If you are interested I will make the plans available to you.

F3 is 40 Hz, and since this is a true TL an not mass loaded it is only down 15 db at 20 Hz, and only 8 db down at 30 Hz. Power handling is 100 watts and sensitivity would be 94 db 2.83 volts 1 meter.

This would be a highly cost effective speaker, and likely one of the very best around. If you would consider building a pair of these I would be very grateful.

If you are interested I will send you full details.

I was hoping you might chime in. I thought I recalled your interest to this end.

My only real limitations thus far with my lack of understanding (along with the principle of the design) with TL, is the floor standing variants with regard to my space. I don't have much room for separation with the bottoms of the cabinets exposed due to having a sofa and a love seat at either side of a relatively narrow room that only allows for about 4 ft of separation on center if they had to be out in the room. As it is, the Tempests I own, and other speakers I have owned in the past had to be either on stands, or on top of my end tables to get over the ends of the furniture.

If there is some way around this, or if it is not a concern, I would definitely be interested in trying one of your designs. At the very least, you might be able to help with other possibilities that can be mounted from 26" and up, even if inverted.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm so glad you are interested in full rangers. I have written on these forums at length about full range speakers.

The more I am reading, the more intriguing it becomes. These different approaches is what leads me to try different kinds of music that I would not typically listen to. I enjoy the discovery aspect of this hobby as much as anything else about it.

I started on this forum with having only known 3 way speakers. Then was convinced to try two-way and have enjoyed that step. Full range seems like the next obvious direction.

Now I have had a limited experience with coaxial drivers which was an accident. My brother (I don't know if he used some kind of plans from something along the lines of a Popular Mechanics approach) had installed multiple 6x9 car speakers into some good sized, well lined cabinets and they sounded very good. I don't know if the coax's had included crossovers on them or anything else. This was in the mid-late 70's.

 

[shadyJ]

I hear the Radian coaxial drivers are very good. If I were to build a speaker, I would probably design something around one of their coaxial drivers. I am working on a review of a coaxial speaker at the moment that I quite like.

Regarding MarkAudio drivers, we will have a MarkAudio-SOTA speaker review published soon, so keep an eye out for that.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was hoping you might chime in. I thought I recalled your interest to this end.

My only real limitations thus far with my lack of understanding (along with the principle of the design) with TL, is the floor standing variants with regard to my space. I don't have much room for separation with the bottoms of the cabinets exposed due to having a sofa and a love seat at either side of a relatively narrow room that only allows for about 4 ft of separation on center if they had to be out in the room. As it is, the Tempests I own, and other speakers I have owned in the past had to be either on stands, or on top of my end tables to get over the ends of the furniture.

If there is some way around this, or if it is not a concern, I would definitely be interested in trying one of your designs. At the very least, you might be able to help with other possibilities that can be mounted from 26" and up, even if inverted.

None of those issues will be any problem, we can arrange for the port to be at the top.

 

[MrBoat]

None of those issues will be any problem, we can arrange for the port to be at the top.

Before I involve you too much and make you waste your time, what is the rough physical size of what we are talking about here. This will tell me more than anything if, or how, I can fit them in what space I have in this room. As it stands now, my other efforts allow me to not have to move my main speakers out of the room. Stands and such I can weasel in and about. Without moving anything, I have two, 16" wide slots on either side of my television at about 55" on center with about 36" of room between the back wall and the ends of the sofas. This is about 7-9 ft away from my main listening position.

The other alternative is to vacate an addition (12'x20') room of everyone else's stuff, and make another listening room, which is a possibility.

 

[KEW]

.

Dr. Mark,
I don't often have direct conversation/posts with you, but just wanted to say how much I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise on these forums. You have taught me a lot and challenged many beliefs I had and that always leads to better understanding! I am sure there are many others that fall in the same boat.
"Thank you, sir!"

 

[MrBoat]

Dr. Mark,
I don't often have direct conversation/posts with you, but just wanted to say how much I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise on these forums. You have taught me a lot and challenged many beliefs I had and that always leads to better understanding! I am sure there are many others that fall in the same boat.
"Thank you, sir!"

I agree. I was just reading through the jw-of-sales-brochure he linked to. I had no idea these things existed from what is apparently my very limited exposure to all things audio. TLSguy manages to post things from some far out reaches of this sport, compared to what mass marketing holds the majority of us to these days. That's why when I see something that is not wholly embraced by the mainstream, I become interested.

 

[shadyJ]

Here is a driver I would love to see how well it could be used in a hi-fi speaker: Radian 5312BeNeo. I would love to get ahold of one and do some measuring. I think there is a chance that it could be used very nicely in a constant directivity speaker. The only problem is the price

 

[MrBoat]

Here is a driver I would love to see how well it could be used in a hi-fi speaker: Radian 5312BeNeo. I would love to get ahold of one and do some measuring. I think there is a chance that it could be used very nicely in a constant directivity speaker. The only problem is the price

lol. . . I like the "BUY ME" at each listing.

 

[Verdinut]

I'm so glad you are interested in full rangers. I have written on these forums at length about full range speakers.

You are absolutely correct that the mid range of a speaker must be perfect. Unfortunately t is so often necessary to have a crossover in the speech discrimination band. Crossovers introduce time shifts and disconnect fundamental tones from their harmonics in time.

The problem is that no one has achieved pistonic motion throughout the frequency range, and so cone break up has to be accepted and designed into the driver. So roughness in the upper frequencies and poor off axis response is all too common.

All designers should be full rangers at heart.

I have a long association with the Jordan Watts module. I still think overall this unit still has the smoothest response of all the full rangers. The Mark Audio drivers are its direct descendants. In may respects improved, but a little hot in the top end.

I have a fully worked up a design for two of these Mark Audio drivers in a TL with this tweeter. Although strictly speaking not a full ranger, to all intense and purposes it is. It is an MTM design with the break up dealt with and and the phase shift kept to no more than 90 degrees, so it is a phase coherent speaker. It models ruler flat, and there are only four small components in the crossover.

I really don't have the energy to build a pair of these right now. If you are interested I will make the plans available to you.

F3 is 40 Hz, and since this is a true TL an not mass loaded it is only down 15 db at 20 Hz, and only 8 db down at 30 Hz. Power handling is 100 watts and sensitivity would be 94 db 2.83 volts 1 meter.

This would be a highly cost effective speaker, and likely one of the very best around. If you would consider building a pair of these I would be very grateful.

If you are interested I will send you full details.

Greetings Mark,

Have you ever heard of the Phi Full-Range speakers? I had the opportunity to hear a pair at one of the Audio shows several years ago in Montreal. I found them very smooth but they weren't cheap.

You can have a look: http://www.phi-audio.com/

Cheers,
André

 

[ski2xblack]

I too would be interested in TLS' design. I've been eyeing the Solstice, but this would be less expensive and quite a bit more sensitive.

 

[MrBoat]

Been eyeing these boxes or just to see what these full range designs encompass or something I might would understand compared to what I have been exposed to. Seems there is a lot more to it than I expected. Evident by the work some of these companies are putting into these drivers.