Finally I have Saved- Kind Advice on Paradigm

[greatestboss]

Hi guys, I worked really hard to save some money for a HT upgrade. I'm looking for Paradigm speakers, first here is my setup 7.2.4.

1- Front : Definitive Technology BP2006TL ( Powered)
2- Center: Definitive Technology CLR 2500 (Powered)
3- Surround: Definitive Technology BPVX (Powered)
4- Back Surround: Definitive Technology: BPX
5- Atmos: 4 Klipsch RP-140SA
6- Subwoofer: Definitive Technology SuperCube 1
7- AV Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR3030
8- Blu Ray: Denon DBT-3313UD
9- TV: Panasonic Plasma 65"
11- Room: My room size is 2150 Cubic Feet. Room floor Tiles, Walls are Concrete and Ceiling is Gypsum board. My listening distance is 11 Feet from front and center speakers.

I feel my front are no match for the rest of my system and I got a great deal on the Paradigm Prestige 95F as fronts and Prestige 55C as Center. I found them for a great price of $4,525.

My Question are they too large for my room, should I buy the 85F & 45C instead.

Kindly advice and as I have saved for the past two years to be able to upgrade.

Many thanks for your help in advance.

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think the 95F is too much for your room. However, I do think that if you don't tend to listen at high volumes, than you are paying for dynamic range that you would not be using with the 95F. You might actually think about stepping down to the 85F or 75F in that case. The advantage with those smaller woofers can be that they probably have a wider dispersion pattern than the 8" woofers of the 95F, and that might actually sound better to you. If it were me, I would go for the 85F or 75F and put the savings into a real subwoofer. The sub you have now is very meh, you can do much better. Sell the sub and get a couple of good 15"s from Hsu, Rythmik, or SVS.

The room description also reads like a reverberant chamber, and if there is nothing taming the acoustic reflections in there, you really should think about getting some room treatments. Otherwise your upgrade will do nothing to improve the sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

The thing that shouts upgrade to me is to get a real subwoofer(s).

 

[greatestboss]

I don't think the 95F is too much for your room. However, I do think that if you don't tend to listen at high volumes, than you are paying for dynamic range that you would not be using with the 95F. You might actually think about stepping down to the 85F or 75F in that case. The advantage with those smaller woofers can be that they probably have a wider dispersion pattern than the 8" woofers of the 95F, and that might actually sound better to you. If it were me, I would go for the 85F or 75F and put the savings into a real subwoofer. The sub you have now is very meh, you can do much better. Sell the sub and get a couple of good 15"s from Hsu, Rythmik, or SVS.

The room description also reads like a reverberant chamber, and if there is nothing taming the acoustic reflections in there, you really should think about getting some room treatments. Otherwise your upgrade will do nothing to improve the sound.

Thanks for the detailed input, unfortunately I live in a Leased Large Apartment thus I can't do room treatments. Hopefully once I get my own house, I'll build my HT Room from Scratch.
The offer on the table for 95F/pair + 55C is $4,525. I'll have to hunt for 85F or 75F, however should I too downgrade to 45C from 55C if I get the 85F/75F.
I listen to high Volumes when I watch Football, my Onkyo is volume is up to 60 then. Movies on weekends nights around 50-55.
So the sub I have is kinda obsolete , so should I consider the Prestige 1000SW or Prestige 2000SW as a good option or go for ones from Hsu, Rythmik, or SVS.

Again many thanks

 

[greatestboss]

The thing that shouts upgrade to me is to get a real subwoofer(s).

Yes ShadyJ did highlight this as you did. I never thought that my sub was this bad. I thought the technology on these hardly changes.
So it won't match the paradigm fronts and center.

 

[Pogre]

Yes ShadyJ did highlight this as you did. I never thought that my sub was this bad. I thought the technology on these hardly changes.
So it won't match the paradigm fronts and center.

Matching subs to speakers isn't necessary at all. The difference between an OK sub and a really good one is more than most realize.

The one upgrade I did that improved overall sound quality in my system was upgrading my subs. I felt the same as you, but it really did made everything sound cleaner and more detailed. True good bass is often underrated.

 

[Hetfield]

Matching subs to speakers isn't necessary at all. The difference between an OK sub and a really good one is more than most realize.

The one upgrade I did that improved overall sound quality in my system was upgrading my subs. I felt the same as you, but it really did made everything sound cleaner and more detailed. True good bass is often underrated.

Agree 100% with this post.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for the detailed input, unfortunately I live in a Leased Large Apartment thus I can't do room treatments. Hopefully once I get my own house, I'll build my HT Room from Scratch.
The offer on the table for 95F/pair + 55C is $4,525. I'll have to hunt for 85F or 75F, however should I too downgrade to 45C from 55C if I get the 85F/75F.
I listen to high Volumes when I watch Football, my Onkyo is volume is up to 60 then. Movies on weekends nights around 50-55.
So the sub I have is kinda obsolete , so should I consider the Prestige 1000SW or Prestige 2000SW as a good option or go for ones from Hsu, Rythmik, or SVS.

Again many thanks

That is a pretty good offer. If that is something you have been saving for, you won't get a better deal. However, if you have simply been saving for an upgrade without being too pinned down on what to upgrade to, that might be a hasty purchase. If it were me, I would be looking at some good bookshelf speakers and some good subwoofers, but bookshelf speakers probably won't have the dynamic range that the 95F speakers do.

Your sub would be a joke next to those speakers, so yes you should upgrade. Do not use that sub with those speakers, it will actually make the sound worse.The Prestige subs would be nice, but not really the best bang for the buck as far as performance goes. Your dollar with go a lot further with a sub from Hsu, Rythmik, JTR, or SVS Ultras.

 

[greatestboss]

That is a pretty good offer. If that is something you have been saving for, you won't get a better deal. However, if you have simply been saving for an upgrade without being too pinned down on what to upgrade to, that might be a hasty purchase. If it were me, I would be looking at some good bookshelf speakers and some good subwoofers, but bookshelf speakers probably won't have the dynamic range that the 95F speakers do.

Your sub would be a joke next to those speakers, so yes you should upgrade. Do not use that sub with those speakers, it will actually make the sound worse.The Prestige subs would be nice, but not really the best bang for the buck as far as performance goes. Your dollar with go a lot further with a sub from Hsu, Rythmik, JTR, or SVS Ultras.

Many thanks, I'm sharing photos from my room for your reference. Let me know if you have additional thoughts

 

[Pogre]

That is a pretty good offer. If that is something you have been saving for, you won't get a better deal. However, if you have simply been saving for an upgrade without being too pinned down on what to upgrade to, that might be a hasty purchase. If it were me, I would be looking at some good bookshelf speakers and some good subwoofers, but bookshelf speakers probably won't have the dynamic range that the 95F speakers do.

Your sub would be a joke next to those speakers, so yes you should upgrade. Do not use that sub with those speakers, it will actually make the sound worse.The Prestige subs would be nice, but not really the best bang for the buck as far as performance goes. Your dollar with go a lot further with a sub from Hsu, Rythmik, JTR, or SVS Ultras.

Totally agree with everything in this post. I own a set of SVS Ultras and they're pretty dynamic speakers for a bookshelf. Legit, solid bass down to 50hz and they aren't afraid of some power. I cross them over to my subs at 80hz. I've never bottomed them out, even full range at spirited levels, and they look as good as they sound.

 

[shadyJ]

Some things you can do to improve sound quality is use thick fabric curtains, like velvet. Thick fabrics everywhere will damp the sound. A thick rug will help damp the first reflection off of the floor better, so you can put a shag type rug over the rug you have there now, that will go a long way. Putting thick fabric coverings over the leather furniture will help. For decor, use thick fabric art pieces or something like that. Basically, anywhere you can drape a anything like a blanket, that will help. It will only help higher frequencies though, it will do nothing for bass frequencies. Still, if you find the sound to be bright or smeared, you need to deaden it, and putting thick, fuzzy fabrics everywhere is a way to do that.

 

[shadyJ]

One more thing, here is an equally priced alternative to the Paradigm speakers: JBL LSR6332, $1,560 each. If you can stand their, well, 'plain' appearance, you get one of the most accurate loudspeakers on the planet.

Here is what I am talking about: Frequency response of the 95F, from this review:

This is a bit rocky, to put it mildly. You would expect something less erratic for that price. Now here is the Frequency response for the LSR6332:

That is a thing of beauty. One of the most linear speakers out there, and it has tremendous dynamic range too. The only caveat is that it is not a terrible stylish speaker, and it is intended for studios and sound stages, not really for home use. It is a true high-fidelity speaker. It is THX PM3 certified meaning it is certified to create THX soundtracks on, not just playback! These have a good enough response to be used in a THX mixing stage.

Harman actually used LSR6332s in their reference listening room. By the way, Harman was widely regarded to have the best research and development group for loudspeakers in the world. Here is a pic of the LSR6332s in their reference room:

Anyway, here is some good news about the 95F speakers:

You can see that the horizontal dispersion is very uniform, which is good. However, and what can be easy to forget in John Atkonson's measurements, is that the direct axis is zeroed out in this graph, and what that means is all of that rockiness in the frequency response graph carries over at all angles of the speaker's response. Sine the dispersion is very uniform, this is the sort of behavior is what auto-EQ systems like Audyssey can actually help with. However, they are just not needed with a speaker like the LSR6332. There is very little that EQing can do to assist a speaker like that; it is that good.

The bottom line is that the 95Fs look nice, but their frequency response, not so much. The LSR6332 do not look so hot, but their performance measurements are drop dead gorgeous.

 

[greatestboss]

Some things you can do to improve sound quality is use thick fabric curtains, like velvet. Thick fabrics everywhere will damp the sound. A thick rug will help damp the first reflection off of the floor better, so you can put a shag type rug over the rug you have there now, that will go a long way. Putting thick fabric coverings over the leather furniture will help. For decor, use thick fabric art pieces or something like that. Basically, anywhere you can drape a anything like a blanket, that will help. It will only help higher frequencies though, it will do nothing for bass frequencies. Still, if you find the sound to be bright or smeared, you need to deaden it, and putting thick, fuzzy fabrics everywhere is a way to do that.

I will try these suggestions to try and improve the sound + upgrade the Sub with the ones suggested, get two floorstanding fronts and Center from the choices I mentioned.
I guess with these choice, I'm well set for a big improvement in sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes ShadyJ did highlight this as you did. I never thought that my sub was this bad. I thought the technology on these hardly changes.
So it won't match the paradigm fronts and center.

The only "matching" a sub needs to do is any aesthetic requirements you have. The Prestige subs appear to me to be overpriced, but if discounted significantly off msrp, then maybe. I'd go with Funk Audio if you want a Canadian mate for the speakers SVS, Hsu, Power Sound Audio, Rythmik would be good considerations....

 

[greatestboss]

One more thing, here is an equally priced alternative to the Paradigm speakers: JBL LSR6332, $1,560 each. If you can stand their, well, 'plain' appearance, you get one of the most accurate loudspeakers on the planet.

Here is what I am talking about: Frequency response of the 95F, from this review:

This is a bit rocky, to put it mildly. You would expect something less erratic for that price. Now here is the Frequency response for the LSR6332:

That is a thing of beauty. One of the most linear speakers out there, and it has tremendous dynamic range too. The only caveat is that it is not a terrible stylish speaker, and it is intended for studios and sound stages, not really for home use. It is a true high-fidelity speaker. It is THX PM3 certified meaning it is certified to create THX soundtracks on, not just playback! These have a good enough response to be used in a THX mixing stage.

Harman actually used LSR6332s in their reference listening room. By the way, Harman was widely regarded to have the best research and development group for loudspeakers in the world. Here is a pic of the LSR6332s in their reference room:

Anyway, here is some good news about the 95F speakers:

You can see that the horizontal dispersion is very uniform, which is good. However, and what can be easy to forget in John Atkonson's measurements, is that the direct axis is zeroed out in this graph, and what that means is all of that rockiness in the frequency response graph carries over at all angles of the speaker's response. Sine the dispersion is very uniform, this is the sort of behavior is what auto-EQ systems like Audyssey can actually help with. However, they are just not needed with a speaker like the LSR6332. There is very little that EQing can do to assist a speaker like that; it is that good.

The bottom line is that the 95Fs look nice, but their frequency response, not so much. The LSR6332 do not look so hot, but their performance measurements are drop dead gorgeous.

Many thanks for the effort you've put in explaining the difference between these speakers. I will check with the dealer if they have them in stock and go listen to them.
This is becoming more and more confusing, I auditioned the KEF's, DT, B&W but to me the 85F & 95F sounded more vibrant and Lively on sports which is my first choice in watching TV .

I'll give the JBL's a try.

Thanks

 

[shadyJ]

Many thanks for the effort you've put in explaining the difference between these speakers. I will check with the dealer if they have them in stock and go listen to them.
This is becoming more and more confusing, I auditioned the KEF's, DT, B&W but to me the 85F & 95F sounded more vibrant and Lively on sports which is my first choice in watching TV .

I'll give the JBL's a try.

Thanks

They are more vibrant and lively because they have very elevated treble. That is fine if you enjoy that sonic character, however it is not accurate sound reproduction, precisely. That doesn't mean they sound bad though. Sporting events are not very good demonstrations of sound quality, by the way. It is mostly just highly compressed speech of the announcers. A 'bright' speaker like the Paradigms will have a more distinct sound in that kind of material because it can emphasize the sibilant parts of speech, the 'S' sound, the 'T' sound, and so on. The music and field recorded sounds in a sports event mix are fighting for dynamic space against the announcer, so the entire mix is heavily compressed.

One advantage that a bright speaker can have is if you have hearing loss in high frequencies, it can sound a bit more clear than neutral or accurate speakers.

 

[greatestboss]

They are more vibrant and lively because they have very elevated treble. That is fine if you enjoy that sonic character, however it is not accurate sound reproduction, precisely. That doesn't mean they sound bad though. Sporting events are not very good demonstrations of sound quality, by the way. It is mostly just highly compressed speech of the announcers. A 'bright' speaker like the Paradigms will have a more distinct sound in that kind of material because it can emphasize the sibilant parts of speech, the 'S' sound, the 'T' sound, and so on. The music and field recorded sounds in a sports event mix are fighting for dynamic space against the announcer, so the entire mix is heavily compressed.

One advantage that a bright speaker can have is if you have hearing loss in high frequencies, it can sound a bit more clear than neutral or accurate speakers.

Thank God my hearing is perfect and thus not a deciding factor. It makes real sense what you've described. I shouldn't forget that I'm also a movies guy and in that case it makes even more sense to take your advice. Let me do the audition on the JBL and we will take it from there.

Many thanks

 

[shadyJ]

The JBL will be tough to audition. It isn't something sold at hi-fi shops. You would have to go to a pro-audio recording equipment shop to hear those. So somewhere like guitar center, although I don't think guitar center itself carries those. If you want to hear them, I would contact JBL Pro and ask them where the nearest dealership is.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hopefully once I get my own house, I'll build my HT Room from Scratch.

When will this happen?

I would keep what you have now and wait until you get your house.

In the meantime, save more money and do more research.

 

[greatestboss]

When will this happen?

I would keep what you have now and wait until you get your house.

In the meantime, save more money and do more research.

Hopefully in the next 5 Years. So you reckon that the existing setup is good enough for now. I thought the deal I was getting was unbeatable.