Digital-to-Analog Converters (DACs) Comparison

[Biggiesized]

The question is "do the professional reviewers label them based on the measurements or based on what they think they hear ?"

Definitely the former. But if they consider a piece of audio electronics' value, what you hear should factor in the most. I think the problem is they do everything by the numbers, but hardly enough people have the kind of setup that make an audible difference, if any, in an A/B comparison.

 

[bogicp]

Hello to all!

Very interesting thread indeed!

.....

Flagship Analog Devices DACs: AD1955 (THD 0.0006%, SNR 120dB, Crosstalk -125dB).
.....

In AD1955 datasheet I found that THD+N is better than -110dB, which means "better than 0.0003%"... or I'm wrong?

I agree that all of this converters are very small differences... but, if we look only at number specs, AD1955 has best thd+n performances... with or without "mono mode"

all the best

boggy

 

[rnatalli]

I recently compared the DAC's in the Emotiva DMR-1 to the DAC's in a simple Denon. This was a blind test with levels matched and it wasn't difficult to choose what was playing each time. I have most of biases under control and generally don't hear differences where there are none, but in this case I must admit it was there. I will volunteer the possibility that I may have missed something while setting things up causing the difference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hello to all!

Very interesting thread indeed!



In AD1955 datasheet I found that THD+N is better than -110dB, which means "better than 0.0003%"... or I'm wrong?

I agree that all of this converters are very small differences... but, if we look only at number specs, AD1955 has best thd+n performances... with or without "mono mode"

all the best

boggy

Yeah, you are right. I don't know what I was thinking.

THD (-dB) = 20*Log (%THD/100)

So 20*Log (0.0003/100) = -110dB.

I guess we can't really compare among different companies becaue they have different standards. For example, THD @ 44 kHz frequency range is different than @ 96 kHz vs 192 kHz? And different Voltage? Etc.?

Anyway, it's just for FUN, like you said.

Do you think Superman could hear the difference between a THD of 0.0003% and 0.0004%?

Of course, he can!

 

[bogicp]

.....

Do you think Superman could hear the difference between a THD of 0.0003% and 0.0004%?

Of course, he can!

When we have a specs only, without any experience about some chips... there are a "big fun" to unscramble REAL specs from datasheets (there are some words of engineers, marketing people, ... even some blurbs, lies, errors and omits.. etc)... otherwise we must build all that implementations, tweak it to sound best as he can, measure it, listen it (not only designer!) for a long time enough to have some subjective opinions... etc... probably one human life isn't enough for check all this possibilities ...



regards,

boggy

 

[mr-ben]

Now you're making me wonder if I should try the 2-Ch outputs for 2Ch CDs instead of also using the 5.1 outputs.

So you really think the 2Ch output sounds better for 2Ch CDs than the 5.1 output, huh?

Yes! I would guess that your player is configured similar to mine. It's very easy to try it, and I'll bet you'll notice an improvement in the 2ch output.

 

[dancho]

Onkyo Integra TX-SV909PRO DACs

Hi everyone,

I am thinking of purchasing a Onkyo Integra TX-SV909PRO receiver.

I have no idea how one would go about finding out what the DACs in this vintage (circa 1992) receiver are. Does anybody have a clue? I wonder if at that point the DAC technology was mature...

Thank you very much for any input.

 

[highfigh]

Do you think Superman could hear the difference between a THD of 0.0003% and 0.0004%?

Of course, he can!

I'm not sure Superman can, but Chuck Norris can.

 

[gus6464]

I recently compared the DAC's in the Emotiva DMR-1 to the DAC's in a simple Denon. This was a blind test with levels matched and it wasn't difficult to choose what was playing each time. I have most of biases under control and generally don't hear differences where there are none, but in this case I must admit it was there. I will volunteer the possibility that I may have missed something while setting things up causing the difference.

Which one sounded better?

 

[surveyor]

I'm very depressed my Outlaw 990 uses Digital to Analog: Analog Device AD1852 24-bit/192kHz ! I am going to call Superman and ask him if he can really hear the difference.


Even worse, it uses:
Analog to Digital: AKM AK5380
Digital Remastering Chip: Analog Device AD1896

 

[businessjeff]

I can understand how these numbers are pointless in comparison, but what I want to know is what allows some DAC's, do they really distinguis between DAC and ADC?, if so then I would be meaning ADC, what allows some to do input audio into a computer at 24bit 44.1 max and others can do 96k max and some even 196k

Thats something thats very important, where im getting at is, with what im wanting to do which is setting up PA systems for bands and doing recording, ect. you have to buy lots of expensive equipment that could all be ran on a PC digitally. However I think that one reason why this hasn't been done yet is perhaps computing power (although im sure a new Power Mac can make time travel possible now) and the loss in acoustic efficiency from making the A/D conversion and back.


So If I can find components to I/O Mics and Lines into my PC then I can do all my effects and mixing without having to spend tens of thousands of dollars on equipment, im just now looking at hardware and im not sure if they make anything (basically just a ADC) with enough i/o to match what even what a medium grade 16 channel 8 buss mixer would have.


All that aside though, you can mix and add effects just as well digitally with a PC and avoid having to buy expensive mixers, compressors effects processors... ect.

Cakewalk Sonar 8 can handle 64bit 384khz sampling sooo computers and software would not be the bottle neck, ADC's and hardware to get them to the PC may, but im just curious about the ADC's at this point.

So what make some ADC's DAC's able to hand higher sampling rates, thats what matters not one thousandths of a difference in THD.

 

[OttoMatic]

Well, an ADC or DAC that can handle a higher sampling rate was simply designed that way. One is designed to sample the analog signal at 44,100 times per second and one is designed to sample 96,000 times per second (for example). It's just their clocking scheme. It's slightly similar to asking why one Pentium chip is 2.8 GHz and another is 3.0 GHz -- they just run at different clock rates.

Similarly, the bit width of the ADC or DAC is an element of design (16 bit vs 24 bit or whatever).

I think that for your question, you just have to ensure that the hardware you get is compatible with whatever else you're using.

You can certainly use software based solutions. I've used some for multitrack processing, and they're OK. I've not played with them in a live situation. I've used CoolEdit and another popular one that I can't recall right now. They're both a little slow, but it depends on your PC. A hardware solution is frequently easier to use because of the real knobs and the visibility of the entire system without having to go through menus and such. But as you say, the hardware is gonna cost you.

Good luck!

 

[businessjeff]

Well, an ADC or DAC that can handle a higher sampling rate was simply designed that way. One is designed to sample the analog signal at 44,100 times per second and one is designed to sample 96,000 times per second (for example). It's just their clocking scheme. It's slightly similar to asking why one Pentium chip is 2.8 GHz and another is 3.0 GHz -- they just run at different clock rates.

Similarly, the bit width of the ADC or DAC is an element of design (16 bit vs 24 bit or whatever).

I think that for your question, you just have to ensure that the hardware you get is compatible with whatever else you're using.

You can certainly use software based solutions. I've used some for multitrack processing, and they're OK. I've not played with them in a live situation. I've used CoolEdit and another popular one that I can't recall right now. They're both a little slow, but it depends on your PC. A hardware solution is frequently easier to use because of the real knobs and the visibility of the entire system without having to go through menus and such. But as you say, the hardware is gonna cost you.

Good luck!

Exactly thank you very much, im no expert, but thats what im coming to realize that maybe all the expensive equipment may just very well be for ease of use. Idk I suppose that for the 5k it will cost you for a Power Mac and if you got legit with software that would be another 1k or more, as well you would want 2 or 3 lcds so... Then the I/O hardware

I think it would be close and at that point just preference, for starting out though you dont necessarily need 12 inputs.

Anywho so what makes a ADC/DAC is just how its built. Well thats simple enough, thanks.

 

[shokhead]

So between the Denon 3808, Denon 1611UD and the Oppo 93 there just isn't enough difference in the DACs to be concerned about?

 

[davidtwotrees]

ADTG, old thread of yours here, with the dac numbers. I wonder what the dacs are in my Lexicon DC-1 pre pro? When you turn the unit on, it has a flashing bar light that comes on and says "runnning diagnostic tests", then that finishes and up comes the Lexicon logo and "Lexicon inc., version 1.0, 1996". Old school. It's a pretty moot point as I run all my gear analog for zone 2 purposes. And everything sounds just fine. When I was ga ga about this hobby a few years back, I did try all opitcal connections and couldn't hear the difference......

 

[Shakes]

Hi all. New here. As a disclaimer, I cannot afford to be an audiophile. But I would like to live a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget! Audio equipment is somewhat like that for me, so I have to watch the wallet, and diversify...

Anyway, I bought an Onkyo TX NR-818 7.2(.1) amplifier a long time back, been enjoying that with some horrible speakers that don't do it justice, and should be converted into Guinea Pig hutches instead. So I needed new speakers, plus more power, well it started at new speakers anyway. $10,000, ok... but I wouldn't want to take them outside to thrash them! So I decided to build an amplifier rack for some PA 2-way passives. I can still use the rack's subwoofer amplifier for my Onkyo via a DAC input, and still have a complete bi-amp + subwoofer amp system for family functions and parties, and leave Onkyo in place.

My point here is, the rack system and speakers built off plans is $10k, and much of it serves dual purpose. DACs are very expensive to add salt into a financial wound, and I really need a DAC for the Crown XTi 2 DSP amplifiers w/USB control, as other solutions degrade the audio stream, in most cases for PA gear, only at 48khz. So DSP it is...

So without boring you all, I wanted a cheap DAC to get me by, one I can still plug my Onkyo subwoofer analog outputs into, one with at least 192khz, so I can play such files off my laptop, and one with balanced XLR outputs. I didn't get XLR, but that's ok, RCAs will do. The M-Audio Super DAC will tide me over until I get a Matrix X-Sabre DAC. You can't have it all at once right? Of course I can... in my dreams.

The main point here is there are now smaller, and affordable DACs hitting the market, that utilize chips we all used to consider audiophile grade. Whilst analog output stages may not be great, some of them certainly aren't a kick in the pants. The only thing I fear on them is the input power, where they use USB powered units, or external power supplies. But this can be resolved with a battery for clean DC power, or find a quality filtered power supply, though avoid USB powered units that also steam audio data in the same cable, not a good idea I think.

If anyone like me would like to enter into the world of decent audio, it no longer needs to cost you your unruly first born, and you can find an entry point to start at.

I live in Australia, dollar is usually around 72c US. So you can imagine the exchange rates, import duties, retailer markups and even courier. High-end DACs are out of reach for a lot of us, which is also why I like my Onkyo, but as I said, I like to diversify, and make things dual purpose, otherwise I am wasting my money. By the way, the M-Audio DAC will eventually become my backup/laptop headphone amplifier when I upgrade it.

Thanks for the welcome I'm sure

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I literally have no idea or how teenage girl would say it - "I literally can't even".
a) What is @Shakes question - I am lost in sea of noise and irrelevant info
b) Why he thought it would be good idea in same time both highjack and exhume ancient thread
c) What DACs has to do with sound quality? (hint-hint: very little in practise, despite specs variations)

 

[Shakes]

I literally have no idea or how teenage girl would say it - "I literally can't even".
a) What is @Shakes question - I am lost in sea of noise and irrelevant info
b) Why he thought it would be good idea in same time both highjack and exhume ancient thread
c) What DACs has to do with sound quality? (hint-hint: very little in practise, despite specs variations)

a) If you're lost in a sea of noisy text, you didn't read very well what I am trying to achieve, why a DAC selection, and purpose it important to me right now. I also am not a Facebook, or Twitter poster, and one liner posts are rediculously uninformative a lot of the time, so sorry if you think it's a larger post than usual. Not every post needs to be a question either. It's a forum, or do you feel in arrogance everyone is seeking information from you, the expert? But wouldn't your own response be adding to the alleged padding too?

b) Forums are for sharing ideas, ideals, and information. Threads can be exhumed if they are relevant, rather than creating new threads and clogging up a forum. Bottom line is, you didn't need to read it if you didn't want to, and eventually it will go to the wayside again, until someone searches, and wants to have a read, even add to it themselves! I like reading forums myself, and excuse me, but if old threads are supposed to stay dead, then they would auto-lock, or moderators would have to be locking them all the time, which would defeat the purpose of how a forum works. Maybe you feel you are supposed to be in control of this, and the people that visit?

c) DACs become an affordability issue, or are you happy to settle with onboard laptop audio, or analog audio from a phone's headphone jack as a source? Or is it so invalid that you feel it should be cast aside? Your statement is invalid, and shameful for a long standing forum member... sorry.

With respect, why not be part of a conversation, rather than badgering it with points of offensive personal opinion?

We'll leave it at that. Thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

First, just wanting the gear makes you an audiophile, no price tag attached (it just means an enthusiasm for hi-fi audio). What's wrong with the DAC in the 818? 818 even has active bi-amping if you want. Confused about much of your original post (or why you resurrected a 5 year dead thread for it). Welcome in any case....

 

[Shakes]

Hello sir,

In a sense you are right. To an extent, my idea of audiophile is obtaining gear that produces nice sound. I started out with a Sony AC amp, and my ears had suffered until I bought the Onkyo, but as I mentioned, the speakers require replacing. So to answer your question, yes the Onkyo has bi-amping, and indoors, as part of my home theater, I intend to utilize the same speakers I'm building for the rack amp system to those passive amps as I think I had pointed out (aside from mentioning the speakers (2-way HF & Mids) will be also bi-amp. Though to run the subs, I still need a DAC analog input as mentioned, and these cheaper DAC are more diverse than they used to be. I can then use a toggle switch on the custom speaker inputs to toggle between the rack bi-amp, or the Onkyo bi-amp, hence the diversifying/dual purpose as mentioned, whilst not having to plug, and unplug cables if I want to take the rack system portable.

As for the two DACs I mentioned in my first post, the M-Audio Super DAC has a Wolfson converter, and specs matter to an extent, as a Harman Driverack PA2 for example, limits my ability to play audio streams higher than 48khz as mentioned. So a DAC direct to daisy chained DSP amplifiers makes sense to me. All these things cost money, and presently don't allow for a higher-end DAC unit. The speakers I am looking at buying are 18 Sound, and quite capable of reproducing quality audio from a decent source. Without a DAC, the system would suffer at the fate of compromised audio sources, rather than USB data to DAC, be it via Neutron Player from Android Phones USB port (Samsung released USB type C yey - charge and play opens it right up on new models,) or from a laptop's USB port.

But as I mentioned, the system forms part of my idea to integrate it with the Onkyo, until the rack system goes portable, hence the passive bi-amp PA speakers, and passive subs.

I feel all spammy and going off topic now, but this is the rack from top to bottom. I'm going to make it a reality:-

1 x Gator HD 8RU case
1 x Gator 1RU drawer
1 x Furman PL-Pro DMC E power conditioner/distributor
1 x XTi 1002 amplifier (L/R HF)
1 x XTi 4002 amplifier (L/R Mids)
1 × XTi 6002 amplifier (L/R Subs)

All this conforms to my budget, and 10 amp wall socket (20 amp circuit breaker,) and the Furman's power output capability. All speakers are 8 Ohm, so amplifiers don't work hard, don't draw excessive power, and good damping and attack/release is catered for.

So yes, as I mentioned, it's all cost, and I had to find a decent entry level DAC to provide an analog audio source, and feel there are others like me that might only be looking for something entry level in a DAC to tide them over until they can afford better.

In my instance, everything integrates, and has purpose. I didn't want to spend the same amount of cash buying the three front HT speaker channels, do't play any CDs these days, and am selling off all my old players.

Imagine unplugging the Onkyo, and lugging it outside, or to a gig, just for the sake of having a DAC, that doesn't appeal to laptop (without setting up a sluggish server,) or phone players.

Is it not tollerable to revive old threads here? If I said, "hey everyone, this DAC," would that make sense at all? the DAC scene is taking off big time, and I want in, but only what I can afford for now, that is also portable, and if I can share my thoughts, maybe it will trigger ideas with others? It's not a question But you know what? I was quite thorough in my first post here, and finding myself having to defend, and explain over and over the same thing, in different wording, and more detail. To be honest, even I would be bored too if I had no interest in this, and had to read it. Is this forum American?